Marketing Sucks
Marketing Sucks is the podcast for business owners who are looking for practical, fun, and strategic ways to get noticed online, and don’t want to sit through 30 minutes of filler to get to the good stuff.
Each week, Grind Social Media + Co founder Amanda Casinha sits down with the industry’s most interesting and unconventional ad experts, funnel developers, content creators, and changemakers to explore their off-the-beaten-path strategies and experiences in the world of marketing and business — and dig into real stories of failures, strategies, and how they got their jaw-dropping results.
Marketing Sucks
Working With Your Partner: The Mental Load of Business, Marriage, and Entrepreneurship
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This week on Marketing Sucks, Amanda and Phil are joined by award-winning psychotherapist Natacha Pennycooke for a real conversation about what it actually takes to work with your partner, protect your relationship, and run a business without letting it take over your entire life. They unpack the mental load that comes with being business partners, especially when you are also married, and why entrepreneurship can put extra pressure on your nervous system, communication, boundaries, and emotional capacity. From defining roles and managing resentment to handling different risk tolerances, setting business boundaries at home, and learning how to separate couple time from work time, this episode is an honest look at the beautiful, messy, complicated reality of “couplepreneurship.” If you work with your spouse, business partner, friend, or anyone you are deeply connected to, this conversation will help you think more intentionally about what the business needs, what the relationship needs, and what you need as a human being.
What You’ll Learn
✔ Why working with your partner can add a whole new layer of mental load
✔ How entrepreneurship can impact your nervous system, relationship, and home life
✔ Why the business can start to feel like a “third person” in the relationship
✔ How to set boundaries around when business conversations happen
✔ Why defining roles clearly can prevent resentment, confusion, and micromanaging
✔ What happens when old relationship issues start showing up in the business
✔ Why accountability matters in both business partnerships and romantic relationships
✔ How to recognize patterns that may be showing up across multiple relationships
✔ What to do when one partner is risk-averse and the other is more impulsive or decisive
✔ Why weekly check-ins can help partners stay aligned, supported, and on the same page
✔ What a healthy “couplepreneur” relationship can look like in real life
✔ Why working together does not mean talking about the business every second of the day
About Natacha Pennycooke
Natacha Pennycooke is an award-winning psychotherapist, speaker, and mental health professional who supports individuals, couples, teens, and families through honest, compassionate, and deeply human therapeutic work. She is known for creating safe, supportive spaces where people can explore relationships, communication, identity, emotional patterns, stress, and life transitions with more clarity and self-trust. Through her practice, group programs, and mental health education, Natacha helps people feel seen, supported, and better equipped to navigate the messy, real parts of life.
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Welcome back to Margie Sex. Oh my god. My name is Amanda Casini.
SPEAKER_04I'm your host, and this is your co-host, Phil Ginther. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And today we have the lovely Natasha on. Hi Natasha. Thank you for being here. I'm so happy to be here with both of you. Can you tell that I'm a little off today? I literally am, we are well, so we're recording this exactly 48 hours before we move to Portugal for the summer, but this will air in September because we are batchworking all of our stuff to make space for a really great summer. So thank you for coming on early.
SPEAKER_00Yes, no, you're welcome. I'm happy to.
SPEAKER_01So what sucks this week? I'll let Phil take it away.
SPEAKER_04I can't even say this in a nice way. What sucks? Working with your partner? It's not what I mean. Like Wow. Maybe that's that's a little too spicy for a for a Monday morning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, what does sucks is the mental load that comes with working with your partner, I guess. Um, and that's what we kind of wanted to talk about. So I think let's let's let's do a definition first of partner. So clearly we are married partners. I mean, now married, technically not in Ontario because our paperwork was never filed, but we are married in the Dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic courts have proof that we did get married actually 15 years ago tomorrow.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, my favorite moment this morning is when another dad at drop off at school reminded Amanda that our anniversary is tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00It's coming up, yeah. Not coming up tomorrow tomorrow. And I'm it's fine. And I love that my 15th anniversary was three days ago. So we're right in there too. Congratulations to all of us.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Yeah. So I guess so, for definition, we are business partners that are married. However, I think this conversation can go for partnerships in general, because I assume that people are going into business with a partner that they know, right? Whether they know them personally, like maybe friendship or obviously married spouses, but I think also it could even be like know them like a business sense, right? Maybe another entrepreneur, maybe something that you know you're going together with. So I guess for the top for this conversation, we're gonna define partner as just like who you are literally legally bound to on contract in business.
SPEAKER_04In any way, shape, or form. Okay.
SPEAKER_01For us, it's marriage. So what I wanted to kind of talk about today, obviously, is like the mental load of it working with a partner and how you know entrepreneurship already messes with your nervous system, right? Like it just throws us for a loop on the daily, hourly, minute by minute basis. And so when we add in a partnership, in my experience, I've had many partners in in life, like in in business. I mean, I've only married one. It it's I think suddenly like everything becomes about business. So then the partnership, whatever existed before, starts to like kind of maybe not dissolve, but it can unravel. So I guess today what I wanted to talk about, and I think this also comes because I now know so many husband and wife, partnerships, like in business, and also people going into business with partners. Sometimes they should have, they shouldn't be, in my opinion. Like, I'm like, do you even know who this person is? And others where you, you know, you know their relationship outside of business, and you're like, is this gonna crash and burn in the business? So it's really interesting because I haven't seen this many like couple partnerships in business in a long time, like in a very long time. So I feel like we can talk about how can couples like work together in like partners, I guess, um, and protect like their marriage or their friendship or you know, their mental health, the business. So that's kind of what I wanted to get into today. I thought it was gonna be fitting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I have a question for both of you. Do you realize that's just a question, right? Have you noticed that since the two of you started working together as partners in the business that that you're seeing a lot more partners or couples who are in business together? Because Amanda, you were saying that you know you're noticing a lot, but has have you only noticed that since the two of you started working together?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I'd say for me, yeah, it's it's rare prior to this experience that I was ever exposed to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I mean, yeah, because like I even have clients that are like they they're married and they run the business full-time together, multiple clients, like not just one, like multiple people who are married to their partner and full like 50-50 business owners together. Right. So it's very interesting for me. Yeah. And it's funny to see those relationships like pan out because we all are very close too, right? So we see each other outside of business like functions or meetings and stuff. So it's really funny when you're like, oh yeah, we know you work together and all the stuff like on the personality.
SPEAKER_03The look.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So let's kind of see two things. So one, I want to talk about the like kind of emotional side of it, like that whiplash that we get from entrepreneurship and coup uh and being in a in a partnership. But then I also want to talk about like what that looks like in business and how do we set boundaries and how can we make it that, you know, I always look at it this way. I'm like, we are not just in, I don't know how to explain this eloquently. So I'm just gonna blur it out. Kind of verbal diarrhea in it. Like we have like a third person in our marriage right now, and that is the business, right? Yeah. So, and and so when you go into business with a partner, like it's it's that you have a relationship, right? And you have your roles in the business, but there's a third person. And so the way I kind of explained it to Phil, I think I explained this to you once. I was like, we're not working together for each other and our family. Like, yes, we are, but we're actually working together for like the third person, the business, right? So, like the goal is the business goals. Our stuff is yes, our personal goals, but it takes a very specific, like, I hate the word, but mindset to really be able, in my like in my experience, like separate that out. And you have to do it in a way that is very intentional, because if not, that's when that third person will start to like take over the relationship and ruin it. In my that's my that's where I come from.
SPEAKER_04I don't know if that's like insightful, but uh, you're laughing when you say it's it's like usually I'm the one that's like you know, guilty of compartmentalizing things like that, right? Like this this exists within this box, but I almost create like two categories for us, and it's like, you know, the personal goals that we set together and then the business goals we set together, and that's the divide in in my mind, anyways, how I separate those two things. Yeah, I don't treat it like its own kind of entity.
SPEAKER_01What is your opinion on having this third person in the relationship?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I I think I think that you're both spot on with this compartmentalization. I say to like couples clients that I work with that when you get together in a romantic relationship, you now have to take care of so many other people, right? There's like three people. So it's like one part of the couple, that person, the relationship with themselves, the other part of the couple, that person's relationship with themselves, and then the entity between the relationship. So there's like three pieces. So now as you add in another person or another entity, business, the way you're thinking about it makes complete sense. So you have to think about okay, we are business partners, and the goal is the business, making sure that the business is well and functional, all of those things that go into it. And us as a couple, as a romantic couple, we have to make sure that we as a couple are good and ourselves and our families, and right, you have two girls and all of that. So the way that you're compart compartmentalizing it, it does make sense. And I think that it's important to do that so then you can set boundaries on what comes up because it's the same two individuals that have to take care of first and foremost yourselves, so you can show up for your family and for the business.
SPEAKER_01I like the boundary conversation. I'm a big boundary. I know.
SPEAKER_04That was uh like immediate, like I'm stepping to the business. You know, I'm riding the this man. I mean, I'm still riding the the wave of optimism and enthusiasm.
SPEAKER_01This is turning into an episode of couples. This is a couples therapy episode. He literally is still in the honeymoon phase. He is like every day, he like like you know, like Cinderella, it's like Cinderelli Cinder, and like the birds are chirping and the da da da, and I'm just like the fucking evil witch locked in the castle, being like, There's so much to fucking do today.
SPEAKER_04So jacked up when things are going well, and it's just like I'm up here and you're here, and you're like, maybe you just yeah, you know, maybe in the middle.
SPEAKER_00But that's the balance, right? Yeah, yeah. I think that's the balance you need. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So on this boundary thing, one day I was just like, you know, a million thoughts. I'm like, here's all the things we can do. And you know, we're walking home from the office, we get home, a man is cooking dinner, and I'm just I'm spewing thoughts out.
SPEAKER_01No, I wasn't cooking, I was sitting down to eat my dinner.
SPEAKER_04This whole time I'm talking, and and she's just slowly chewing, like dead pan staring me, and just letting me finish, and then I'm like, I'm catching on, right? Like my speech is slowing down, and I'm like, oh, you're having dinner, and I'm just still at in in work mode, right now. Yeah, yeah. And so she's like, This is my time, let's let's not do this.
SPEAKER_01I literally was like, you didn't ask me if I was ready and willing and able to listen to a conversation about work. I'm also eating dinner. This is the last thing I want to be doing right now. And obviously, sometimes like that does have to happen. We do have to have like little meetings here and there, like during meals, but I I we there has to be like a like a request to do that. Like that's how I look at it. It's like it's almost like a meeting request coming into my calendar, and I can choose whether or not I accept or decline that meeting. And so right now I'm declining the business meeting while I eat my dinner because I we had a long day too. And I was like, I really can't have another conversation about the fucking business. But it's like you're driving meetings.
SPEAKER_04I'm really happy you did that because it was like oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you stopped and then you put and then I said, schedule a meeting in my calendar for this week, and then we can discuss that. And he was like, Oh, okay. So, anyways, I'm still like that. It's fine. I think it's important though. I do, and I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. I've seen some some you know, businesses that obviously like we're in scale mode, like there's a lot going on. So, and when you live with your business partner, right, it's easy to just work around the clock. I think also that's where your relationship then will die, like from a romantic sense, from like like what other things do you have in common, right? Like, what are the things you have in common and what other things do you talk about other than the business? I pride myself that like I can very much shut off when I have to and like to do other things and talk about other things because we didn't start this relationship in business, right? And it became what it is now, but I don't think that like business has to be spoken about all the time. I think that's I I don't know. For me, that's too much.
SPEAKER_04I will not be bringing my spreadsheet to our anniversary dinner tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we're having dinner tomorrow. I'll be packing. I don't know about you. Anyway, so what are your thoughts on this? Like, what I think that because I feel like everybody's different, right? So I think, yes, there are some, you know, moments where we speak a lot and we don't take breaks from business, but then I think we make intentional, like, set aside time where we're like absolutely not. It's kind of like I look at it like this. It's like, you know, when parents go on dates and then all they do because they need time away from their kids, and then all they do is talk about the kids. It's like kind of that. Like we are not talking about that right now. Like, we're gonna talk about everything other than the thing that we are trying to take a break from. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right. I agree and I love this. I love this conversation. And so it doesn't turn into like couples therapy. But the same way how we talk about love languages, right? Like in a romantic relationship, I think that there's a business language here. And what I'm seeing is that, Amanda, for you, it's like, I'm having dinner, it's been a busy day. I don't want to talk about work and Phil, you're just like, I'm still in a honeymoon phase. I want to talk about it all the time. It's so much fun. I want to share this while we have our downtime. And the thing is, Phil, you picked up on that cue very, very well, right? Like you were talking about it all excited, elated, and then your speech started to slow, and you're like, maybe this is not the best time. I think that's it, like that business language, understanding, okay, who am I in partnership with in the business? And when do they, when do they have the capacity to have this conversation? Have they had a really busy day? Is this a good time? Is this not a good time? And I think these are the important things that we need to understand when we are in business with someone, right? Everyone comes with their own pieces and their own strengths, their own zone of genius. So it's how do we capitalize on that while still having the agenda and we're moving things forward, but also giving that person space when we're in our alone time, family time, home time, and not in business time mode. So I think it's really important that Amanda, you're like, nope, set an appointment in my calendar to have this conversation because right now we switched gears and we're in home life, having dinner, decompressing mode. Right. And I think that is really, really important for the sanity of the relationship, the romantic relationship. Agreed. Yes, agreed. And so you did a good job. You for the you saw it.
SPEAKER_04But it's also, it's also like it's it's like a new muscle to develop, right? Like in the the same way, you know, I've I've tried to spend the past two decades learning how to communicate effectively with you at home. I needed to redo that. Always be working, okay?
SPEAKER_00Yes, we're always changing as people, we're always changing, so that's okay. I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_04We gotta have that conversation.
SPEAKER_03I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_04Um, but then in business, I had to I had to learn that too, right? Because it was just a whole slew of different topics that come with different pressures. Natasha, thank you for laying that up that way. That was great.
SPEAKER_01Acknowledgement for you. He needs to be a good idea. I'm not good at that. I'm not good at that. We're working on that. It's fine. Okay, so what I also want to talk about then in in this whole conversation is something that I see a lot. So defining roles. So in our family life, right, we're I'm we're very clear about whose roles are what, like who takes the kids, who picks up the kids, who does the meals, like we're in constant communication. So, like that's great. I see other situations where I'm like, that seems like a lot for one party, right? So now it's the idea of okay, now you have this partnership. Now, regardless if you're married, what does the role of having defined roles play in a business? Because, right, we can have 50-50 partnerships, you can have 70, 30, 80, 20, 90, 10, whatever it is. The person's still a partner, right? And in whatever, you know, arrangement you have in the business. And for me, it's very always been like, we need roles, defined roles, what you take care of, what I take care of, right? So, like what happens when we don't have these defined roles in business?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's so important. It's important because it has to know who takes responsibility for this thing, who is in charge of actioning it, who is in charge of tracking it, the KPIs, all of that, the outcomes, the operation of it, and the deliverables of it. And I think it's really important that you have that defined so that it's not, you know, kind of wishy-washy in between the two, the two partners. So yeah, it's really important. And regardless if it's like 50-50 or 90-10, having that clear communication is important. But also talking about like what are the strengths of that person and how can that role be best fit with the strengths of who that person is. I think it's great to be able to, you know, go across the room with your partner to say, hey, I'm thinking about this. Do you want to give any input? But ultimately making sure that the responsibility for that role is clearly defined so that it can be identified that this is the role that I'm taking on, this is the role that the other person is taking on, so that you know, you know where things land. So that's really important because what can happen is you could fall into the micromanaging of that task, right? Where the other person might be like, no, it has to be done this way, that way, and so on and so forth. But if it's clearly defined that this is my role, I may pull you in, but ultimately I'm making the decision on what this task is. That is very, very important, especially in a business relationship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, agreed. So now what happens when resentment sets in?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. So are we talking about resentment within the business? Partners who are married or not?
SPEAKER_01I think both, right? Like I think resentment happens no matter what. In any relationship. I think resentment can happen, yeah, in friendships, it can happen in partnerships, it can happen in management, employee, like it really can happen in. I I mean, if we just look at the word relationship, I think resentment is there. Yeah. But I think my take on it is that if you already have existing issues in the original relationship, once resentment in the business starts happening, I believe that the other like shit that you haven't dealt with, just to put it bluntly, starts to bleed into that. And then that is when it's fucking disastrous. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So agreed with that.
SPEAKER_01How do we deal with that? So, what do you do? Do you focus on the business and deal with the business issues and then do deal with the relationship issue, or do you deal with the relationship issue and then let the business sit? I mean, I know my answer, but like I want to hear from you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. This is what I would do first and foremost. It's recognizing that even though it's a business relationship, the initial relationship where there's issues that are there that are showing up, that might be prevalent, that have not been dealt with, that needs to be dealt with first. Because ultimately, we're the we're we're the same people, right? It's the same person in that relationship, whether it's a partnership, friendship, romantic, or not, in that's going into the business relationship. And because we're people, we're social beings, we're impacted by emotions, by thoughts and actions and all of that. That stuff is gonna show up. That resentment's gonna show up, that defensiveness is going to show up. So, first and foremost, it has to be like, okay, listen, this thing happened seven years ago, we never dealt with it. Let's get our shit together, let's figure out what's going on. Are you still harboring resentment? I might be still harboring resentment, I'm being defensive, you're being defensive. Let's deal with that and talk about it. So that ultimately doesn't become a barrier within the business because that absolutely can happen. Again, we're social beings, we tend to get defensive over different things. If we don't deal with that first, it is going to show up. Every decision, every no, every every pivot that person may think it's back to that thing that happened seven years ago that was never dealt with. So absolutely deal with that first. So then you can go into that business as a more productive team.
SPEAKER_01Yep. So are you gonna forgive me for that thing seven years ago?
SPEAKER_04Just gave it was eight.
SPEAKER_01No, but it's so true, right? I think this is for any kind of relationship. Like this advice goes across the board, but it's you know, it's the when I see it happening in businesses, I find that it's I'm usually like, okay, there's a history here. Like this is not the first time something along these lines has happened. And it doesn't even need to be said personally and like also with other stuff, right? So it's also taking a step back, I think, and and just having to be the one to maybe also be the one to for to say it first, right? To like actually be like step outside of your own comfort zone and be like, okay, listen, this shit's been happening. We're seeing a pattern here. I love this conversation. I'm like, this is a pattern. This isn't the first time we've had to have this conversation. And so, like, how can we best move forward? Because I'm tired of having to deal. I can watch you looking at me. I like I because I'm kind of like, not burning a hole in your head, by the way. Yeah, no, because it's like I'm tired of having to have the convers the conversation too on both sides, right? Like it's exhausting. Like, I'm I'm very much a shitter get off the pot type of person. Like, can we just deal with this and be done with it? Like, I'm very, like, if if somebody can take, and this is in any relationship, as long as the other person can take accountability, like real accountability, like I really fucked up here, and I'm gonna do everything in my power via actions to show you, not words, words mean nothing to me, that this will never happen again. Or like, I'll do my best to not have this happen again with my actions, I can literally forget like as if it never happened. However, if the person isn't does not take accountability, and this is like employees, partnerships, friends, this is in every area. If people cannot take accountability for their shit, and then on top of it, continue to do the exact same thing over and over again. To me, that's insane, literal definition of insanity. And I don't play those games. So I think, and that's also goes for me, right? I have to also say, okay, where am I doing the same fucking thing? This is crazy. Why do I keep doing the same, like I'm getting the same outcome and I have the same behaviors? So then it's also an accountability within yourself as leadership, as an owner, as a partner, to say, I need to make a change or I will see no change. So I think that's also important that it's very easy to blame the thing, the person, the seven years ago, the whatever, but what was your part in it as well? And I think that's where a lot of business partnerships go to die because there's ego, and then you add in like romantic relationship into that, and then that it just it spirals if if there isn't like some kind of an accountability in the main issue, right? So yeah, agree. That's where I usually see things go really fucking poorly for people and and and and stuff like dissolves, like relationships are done, businesses are you know picked apart, and it is what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wanted to piggyback off the patterns that you mentioned because that's really important. And a lot of times people don't realize that there's patterns of those behaviors. What I say to clients all the time is you know, even in our therapeutic relationship, that's a it's it's a relationship, but it's a microcosm of other relationships that are happening. So things that you see in one relationship, it's absolutely you're seeing those same patterns in other relationships because it's how that person addresses things, understands things, actions, does things, right? So if you're recognizing that within a business partnership, there's something that keeps playing out, look at other relationships that you have, friendships, other work relationships, partnerships, relationships with parents, siblings, all that, and look to see if there's the same pattern being repeated right across the board. That will tell you where you need to take accountability and what needs to be shifted. And that can be, you know, you can go to a coach, go to a therapist, a mental health professional to help you to understand this is the pattern of behavior that keeps coming up. Is it me? Is it what's going on there? But that could be a telltale sign of something that needs to be worked on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I like I believe like if it's showing up in one area, it's probably showing up in error other areas, but you have to do the work to like really like see it, like sit down, be like, where the hell? Like exactly what you said, where the hell is this happening? The I think the hardest part for people is the accountability part because they would actually because it's not actually the accountability to everybody else, it's the accountability to themselves that they are willing and open to change something for something better. But in order to get to the better, there's all the fucked up shit that happens before it. And so that's where I feel like there's a lot of relationships that go down the drain, and in business specifically, because in business, it's not just the relationship to your partner, right? It's staff, vendors, clients, clients, this person, that person, the network. And so it all like there's all these little micro relationships happening everywhere. And so if you're resenting your partner on something and they're out there doing those relationships, like you can be constantly being like, what the fuck is happening out there, right? And like, how is this affecting the business? So I think it's really important to just like get those little issues taken care of. And sometimes it's actually just a really easy conversation. I know you've had to have conversations and you're like, oh, that was that easy. I was like, Yeah, I'm not like a I'm not like I mean, in business I'm pretty hard ass, but like I I I can have a listening, I just need the time set aside to listen.
SPEAKER_04I I had blocked 60 minutes and it only took five.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, but like I mean, I think it's also like it's that communication too and understanding like, okay, what kind of a space needs to like do people need to be in to hear certain things too?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's huge about creating the space for it, right? Because like if you're if you're coming in under the mindset of it's everyone else's fault, and then your partner's like, you need to examine every relationship in your life in order to resolve, like blah blah blah. Like that's you're defensive right off the bat, right? But knowing that, like, hey, telling you up front, this is probably gonna be challenging. Yeah, but we're gonna be intentional and and do this because it needs to be resolved.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, not a lot of adults do that.
SPEAKER_01No, no, there's not a lot of adult. There's not a lot of adulting in adult in adulting. It's fine. I want to switch gears because this is a fun one for me because I see this a lot in businesses and in partnerships. What happens when one partner is like risk adverse and one is not that and is like goes rogue? Like what what do we do in those situations? Like, what do you do when you're like one person is just avoidant as fuck and does not want to like even attempt a risk or whatever, and the other one is just like yes to everything and like let's take all the risks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a really good one. That in that situation, looking at the pros and cons, right? Take it out of being risk averse or not and look at what is the situation, what are the pros to doing this, what are the cons? And it may have to be until within the partnership, learning other ways, but really being able to make that uh strategy on how to make a decision for things that are coming up. What are the pros for this specific decision on the business? What are the cons for this specific position or situation on the business? Do we take it? Do we not? Do we find a middle ground? I think that's going to be really important because individuals who are that opposite on like different ends of the spectrum on how they view things, it's not saying one is better than the other, just as a generalization, but understanding where the ebb and flow needs to be. Sometimes it needs to be directly in the middle, sometimes it's more to one side or more to the other. So it really depends on that situation. But I think most importantly, it's being able to, within that partnership, being able to communicate why do I think this is a good idea? Why do I think this is not a good idea? And finding that again, whether it's the middle ground or leading more to one or other, but really looking at the betterment of that business decision as opposed to, you know, I'm fearful about this and I want to jump into this. That piece is not the thing that's leading the decision. It's what is good for the business.
SPEAKER_04No, it's funny. You know, when I when I left my job and decided to join the business, like one of the first decisions to make was we need a larger office space. And it was like, I think it was the day we were leaving last year, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was exactly a year ago.
SPEAKER_04They're like, Yeah, here's this space, and it was like, you know, double the rent and all these things. And I'm walking and being like, I need to be fiscally responsible. And like, you know, I have all these ideas in my head. And Amanda's like, Yeah, so we're just gonna take the space and then you can go to Europe.
SPEAKER_01He's literally, he's literally sitting on his computer, like, I don't know what he was doing. And I was like, Yeah, so I just signed the lease and so done. And I need you to start moving the furniture into that new office. He's like, What? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I don't we leave in eight hours for Europe.
SPEAKER_04I came just to move some furniture and like tidy up. I didn't come to like move into a new office space.
SPEAKER_01Well, because at the end of the day, here's the thing, right? Our space is a growing space. This office was perfect. There was zero, like, there could be zero spaces in September when we return. I am assessing the positives for the business. And then we're gonna be in a small ass space in September on top of each other, and I would actually stab you. Yeah, you'd need to throw out so like I couldn't, I needed space. And then, and they also because like I nego and also in that time that he was like, I don't know what, maybe like doing some financial analysis, I I had negotiated the rent down uh significantly, and then I signed.
SPEAKER_04And then so what's great is we get back, and within the first week of September, I'm like, boy, am I so glad we have this space?
SPEAKER_01I was like, wow, it's so great that somebody is a risk taker.
SPEAKER_04But if I if I look if I look at the way you make any any decision, you're very quick in that regard, but you know, I like the soak, like like getting a car. I'm like, if you can test drive multiple cars, you're like, I've driven this thing around the block for two minutes, I'm ready to buy it today. Yeah, and then we we left the lot with that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we left the lot with that car, and he's like, What? He's like, I thought we were gonna go to like four more dealerships. I'm like, I don't have fucking time. This car is great. Again, negotiated a phenomenal deal on it, and I was like, Yep, done. Where do I sign? Give me the keys. And we drove off the lot with the car. And he literally is just sitting in the car on our way home, and he's like, I can't believe we just bought that like that. And I'm like, what are you talking about? We literally were going to buy a car today. I don't understand. Like, and in my brain, right, Natasha, it's very I'm I guess like I'm just such a decisive person. It's like that's the thing. I've done my research. I don't need to talk anymore. I just need a good price, and I'm sold. Like, literally, like, here's all the whatever payment. Like it's done.
SPEAKER_04But you didn't take it on the highway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's like, but we know I didn't even take it on the highway. I'm like, it's a fucking car. Like, what does it matter?
SPEAKER_04I think it's very clear who's who.
SPEAKER_00It's very clear. But I think that, you know, Amanda, what you said, I've did, I did my research. Yeah. That's the piece. Yeah. Right. Where like your research, you're doing it beforehand. Phil wants to do his research while he's doing right, driving the car, taking it on the highway. That's where Phil wants to do his research. Amanda, you like, I looked at specs, I looked at this, I know this, I did this YouTube video, I've talked to this person. So your research is done. Now you need to see the tangible to finish close the deal. Where Phil's like, oh yeah, I learned about this car. Let's go and be on in it, you know, test the seats, do all the things. You're doing your research in in vivo in real time. So I think that's the piece. It's not to say that one's decisive or not decisive. It's where is the decision being made and where's the research being done?
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00Because Amanda, probably the same thing. You did your research on offices. In September, there's not going to be any space. The two of us are going to be here. We need that space. This came up. We got a good deal. Let's get it now.
SPEAKER_01It's just like Portugal. I wanted to live in Portugal for three months of the year, so I bought the family's plane tickets, and then I told him, and then he had to figure out what to do with his old boss.
SPEAKER_04And I said Then I had to research whether or not I would have a job the next day.
SPEAKER_01And then what did I say? What wait, what did I say though? I said, okay, worst case, you get fired, or you need to quit your job, and then you can just work with me in this business, which was always the goal. And so you just delayed that by three years. So it's fine. And now we're sitting here and you had to come to it on your own. And he was making the what did you say? The V in the V in the V. In Vivo in the Vivo, meaning in real time. He had to live miserably in vivo, okay, for three extra years. And now he's here in his little honeymoon line when you're into the business. So it's fine. But I think literally, like for me, I'm again, I'm very much a if this is truly possible, I will rip the band-aid, do the thing immediately, and I will not look back. It just is like, what does that future person want? Like, or what is that future person doing? So then what did I have to do now to be that in six months? And I've always lived like that. And so for me, like when he questions me on my sanity, I'm like, I don't understand. What's the big deal?
SPEAKER_04Well, no, but but that that's the conversation it leads to, right? Which is so fantastic. She's like, Well, if we want to be here, then we need to be acting that way now. And I can get behind that. That that like that resonates brain.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, then he yeah. So I've had to learn how to communicate it. I I reverse psychology him, Natasha, where I'm like, this is where you need to be. So this is where we need down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but don't that's so important, especially in business, right? It's like, yes, what is our goal and what do we need to do to get to the goal? Like we're anchored to that goal and how are we moving there? And then sometimes, you know, being able to know what the goal is. Like, Amanda, your goal is very set, you know what it is. So you know that every decision you make, you're getting closer to that goal.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah. And for us too, to like be able to live overseas with clients, right? That like require us to be odd all the time, which we do, but we set good boundaries in place. And even for him, he's like, I don't understand how we're gonna do this. Like last summer, and I was like, it's fine. I've been doing this for five, this is our fifth year. I'm like, there's nothing wrong. So when we do like new discovery, like intake calls, let's say in September, right? Before I sign that client, I'm like, just so that you know, because you may not know this, we live in Europe three months of the year. Nothing changes with your account. Business is as usual. You just don't have us in person. So if there's anything that has to be in person, you have to schedule it accordingly. And like there is no like, I'm not flying back. Like that's not happening. That's not an option. So, what it does too then is it puts it into perspective for people, it's actually forced the majority of our clients to get so ahead of their own planning. And then it allows them free time in the summer because they don't have to like hustle in August to get something out for September because guess what? We've already done it in May. Yeah. So it also I think is showing other people what's possible. And I think that for me, that's actually the, the, the beautiful part of this. Obviously, living abroad is amazing. But like for me, it's like how many people reach out and say, like, what you guys are doing is amazing. And now that you're doing it together in the business, it's even more inspiring. I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of hard shit that we have to deal with to do this. But at the end of the day, it is about making those decisions together. Like the initial decision wasn't his. I definitely went rogue. But from that point onwards, every decision we have to make together. Like there is no, there's no compromise there. Like we we have to be in line on everything, or else it really doesn't work.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Question, and then we'll continue. What is one conversation that every partner ship should have, like weekly working together? Oh, oh, this is a good one.
SPEAKER_00I guess it needs to be one, what is the goal? Are we still online with what the goal is and who's taking on what piece to move towards the goal? Because I think what happens is in any partnership, people change, right? People change, people shift. We're always growing, we're always learning, we're always adapting. So it's figuring out, you know, are we still in this? What is the goal? Do we still share the same goal? Is there something that needs to be tweaked, changed? And then how are we actioning that? Right? What's going on with that person? Do they also need time and space? Are they operating well? Because we know things at heart, people burn out, right? What do you need support with? That needs to be another, another conversation. So that conversation each week, and it could be like Phil, you were saying, you put an hour into Amanda's calendar and needed five minutes that day. And that's fine. So I think every week have that hour touch base point. Where we're at, what are we doing? Are we still on the same page? Where are things going? Do we need support with anything? Are we okay? How do we move forward?
SPEAKER_01Yep. Agreed.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna set that to a recurring then. There we go.
SPEAKER_01There already is like you just don't realize we're having a moment. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so last question, and then we're gonna sign off. What does a healthy, I'm gonna call it a couplepreneur relationship look like? Like what does it actually look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the two of you are doing a great example. Of showing what it looks like. Yes, take it, take it. And I think the the piece is being able to talk about it openly, right? Because it is hard. It's not only that the business is a challenge, but also relationships are a challenge. And I think some people who are looking at couples doing really great things, they're not realizing all the nitty-gritty that goes into it, right? Because it's really hard. So, you know, what did you call it? Couple peneur. I love that couple purner and couple peneur. I think it really is like understanding what is business time and what is couple time, taking the time for the two of you to continue to be a couple, taking the time for the two of you to also be business partners, and you know, constant communication. I think that's what it looks like, and that's what makes it successful. Yeah, doing a great job.
SPEAKER_01I also I also like chuck it out to this is that I don't touch what he works on, and he doesn't touch what I work on. We have some overlap where we obviously have to like work together, but it's like minimal in the grand scheme of like a weekly workload. And I think that's important. I think once like we touched on this too before, but that micromanagement piece, like nobody wants to be micromanaged. So I think it's just like you have to trust and like step back and let them do their thing, and they have to allow you to do your thing, and then it's that that's why I asked about that weekly, because I feel like that weekly is what grounds us in like knowing what each other's up to, knowing what things are going on, what we both need support with, yeah, what we're both pissed off about because that happens, like to fight it out a little, you know, get out that aggression and then but then move forward, right? And and it's just like, okay, this is like maybe we have to hire somebody, maybe like, oh, you're fucking stressed out, you're at capacity, like, we need to figure this out before it gets worse. So I think that that's important too. And I think that like for most couples working together, they may see the like really beautiful stuff, but there's real shit happening every day, just like in any business or any relationship. So, really, like, I always bring it down to like how badly do you want this? Because, like, are you gonna put the work in? And if you're not willing to put the work in, be a solopreneur, do not have a partner. A partner adds so much complication to business in life in general. Love you, you're my best friend, but at the same time, it complicates things. I'm not offended by that. Yeah, it just complicates things tenfold. And so I find that some people think having a partner will like make it easier, and it does. It does. Like, I say like 80% of the time it makes it easier. The other 20% is a lot of fucking work. So, yeah, so I think like that's my piece. Yeah, because I've been an entrepreneur for 20 years and I've had my fair share of experiences.
SPEAKER_04I think it's also funny, there's a bit of an assumption too when people are like, Oh, well, you work together every day. Oh, yeah. Like, how don't you need a break? And I'm like, You mean the eight hours I didn't speak to my wife once yesterday? And like, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01It's actually funny because we sit literally side by side, and unless it's a day where we actually have to work together on a project, we do not speak. Like, we're just low. We don't speak. We don't, we don't even have lunch together because our schedules don't align. Like, we literally do not speak. The odd time I'll be like, Do you want to go get a coffee in the lobby with me? And we'll go. And we're just both so burnt out that we're not even speaking in the line to get a coffee. We're just like, it was just like walk together, and then we go back to sit down. And that's also why it's really important for us to separate home and business. Because then at home we actually do have conversations that have nothing to do with the business, which is really nice. And is it's important. Thank you for our couples therapy today. That was nice. That was nice. That was a nice one. All right. Well, thank you, Natasha. Where can we find you? What do you have new coming up too? Because this will air in September. So I don't know if you're that far ahead. But let us know.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we have a paramenopause group. It's called Reclaiming Her Parimenopause Support Group, and we are going to be speaking at the 2026 Perimenopause show. That's gonna be from September 21st to 24th, and we're also gonna be launching our cohort two of our paramenopause group right after that. So definitely the waiting list is open. Sign up. We also have our men's group, Schwaner Together Jess Men. We are going to be opening that up. Also in fall, I think October, first week of October, we're going to be opening cohort four up. So definitely sign up for that. Waiting lists are open. Get on them and yeah, and also we have amazing therapists in our in our business who are working with teens and youth and couples and individuals. So definitely sign up. Come see our our come come come come to us. We're able to support you.
SPEAKER_02We're able to do that.
SPEAKER_01Everybody goes to you. That's amazing. Thank you so much, Natasha. We'll have you uh we'll have everything linked in the show notes. So you guys will see all of that there. But also you could just reach out to her on Instagram. We'll tag her in all of the posts. And as always, thank you. We'll see you in a couple of months. We'll see you soon. Thanks.