REPLAY: Let’s Write Your Brand Story with Philip Ginther

When it comes to brand storytelling, your About page is just the first step. Your story should guide your marketing strategy and the way you show up for your audience - and a killer story can help you build connection, trust, and an engaged community that wants to work with you!

As Senior Creative Director at global children's entertainment company Spin Master, Philip Ginther has helped shape the stories of big-name brands such as Paw Patrol and Rubik’s Cube. In this episode of Marketing Sucks, I sit down with Phil to tackle some of the biggest FAQs around copywriting for brands. 

Tune in to learn Phil’s top tips for easy, consistent brand storytelling that connects, including a simple celeb-themed writing exercise that’ll help you master the tone of your brand voice without overthinking it!

Marketing sucks. Let’s learn together. Hit play to discover:‌ ‌

• Easy ways to weave your story into your marketing without making it about selling
• How to lean into your brand’s pillars and avoid stepping out of your lane 
• The secret to turning user-generated content into marketing GOLD!
• The brands that are CRUSHING it right now (and what you can learn from them)

Please rate, review, and subscribe!

Guest bio: Phil Ginther is a Creative Director & Copywriter with over 14 years experience. He’s currently a Senior Creative Director at Spin Master leading global brands such as Rubik’s Cube and Hatchimals, and spends most of his day at play.

Timestamps:‌ ‌

00:12  Meet Phil Ginther

01:32  Phil’s business journey

03:15  Leaving the daily grind

05:22  Joining Spin Master

08:11  Know thyself & thy lane

10:23  Weaving story into marketing

13:29: UGC, Red Bull & Liquid Death

17:10  Brand voice exercise

22:09  Your action item

25:04  Quick-fire questions

26:06  Headphone story & outro

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Production: theultimatecreative.com

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We're gonna try this again because my husband's audio and all his technology has failed today. So let's do this from the top for the second time. Welcome back to Marketing Suc. This week we have somebody that I've known for almost, almost 20 years, my husband, Mr. Philip Ginther. And I thought that we would bring him on because he is probably the most talented copywriter that I know. So hello, Phil. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I'm really good. You're making me blush off the top. So that's nice.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

All right. So before we get started, you are gonna introduce yourself, but I wanted to highlight a couple of the brands that you have worked on. So Phil is currently the senior creative director at Spinmaster. So you may recognize some brands that he's worked on, such as Rubik's Cube, Paw Patrol, Hatchimals, Etchasketch, some of our, you know, household favorites or Bane of our existence if you are parent listening. And then some of his freelance work has actually been with Revlon, Canadian Tire, KFC, Kellogg. So a lot of huge brands that you have written for. So I'm really excited to kind of take a deeper dive into today's episode, which is copywriting for brands. So before we get into all of it, how about you uh give us a kind of a brief intro into like how you got started in all this and all the good things?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Okay. Well, I guess I've been doing this professionally since 2010. And it all started because I absolutely hated my job. And you you know you were part of this. But I would watch the clock on the wall from 9 a.m. all the way till 5 p.m. The minutes seemed to turn into hours, hours felt like days, and I just started asking myself, you know, what am I doing with my time? You know, what's something that make me happy? And I'd always lean towards writing, but I never knew what kind of writing or how that could be lucrative in any sort of way. So I came across uh a cool postgrad program in advertising copywriting, and then luckily I had a partner who was very supportive and encouraged me to quit that job. And uh I went back to school. Yeah, I went back to school for a year. I built a portfolio over eight to ten months, and then I started shopping it around town at ad agencies, design houses, did some freelance work. I was actually thinking about this today. The first paid copywriting job I had was for a website on miniature ponies. And I and you know how much I hate miniature ponies.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

So that that was a fun little memory that I had tucked away into a dark place to never see the light of day again. Yeah, and then from there I I ended up getting a contract with Spin, and that was uh that was October 2010, and and wow, it's been it's been quite the roller coaster since then.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

It has been. And so I want to go back to something you said, which was you hating your job and watching the clock, because I think that there's a lot of people that are listening that are entrepreneurs and starting out because they're kind of sick and tired of, you know, the daily grind and that nine to five and clock in, clock out mentality. And so I wanted to kind of talk about, you know, from your perspective, like what was that like for you when you had to come to me and say, like, I absolutely hate what I'm doing, and I want to make like a massive career change when we were like in the midst of like, you know, planning a wedding and I was starting a business, and there was just so many unknowns and stuff. So what was that like for you? What was it like to finally kind of say, I'm gonna just do exactly what I want to do in this lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Once the decision was made, it was like catharsis, right? It was like this release. But I think leading up to that, it's like, what the hell am I doing? Um, you know, because every this is kind of the joke about writing, right? Everyone can write, so everyone feels they can write, and then you go and you do the thing and you're like, oh my god, it's terrible, and we're our worst critics. We judge our work ruthlessly. And so there was that unknown, that gap between my ambition and my actual skill set at that time. And then the impact on us, right? Like, oh well, I'm not gonna be making money for a year, I can only work part-time, we'll go into school full-time. How does that work? But you kind of you, you know, we figured it out along the way, and that fear turned into probably the best decision I've ever made in regards to career or general happiness in the work that I do. Because it opened up a door to something I didn't even know exists. And, you know, working specifically in like children's entertainment, I s I do spend most of my day laughing, which is uh which is a total privilege. And I didn't know that was an avenue that could be open to me. And I can't imagine like going back 14 years and still being in that position where the minutes are literally crawling by. Yeah, I don't want to go there.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, yep, nope, we don't. So let's talk about you kind of getting that first in with Spin Master. And I remember when you applied, I think it was for an internship, right? Was that how it started? It was an internship.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

It was a it was a contract position.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Got it. Okay, sorry, it was a contract position. So I remember you having to go, and I remember a little bit, I can't remember the exact details, but can you go into it? It it had something to do with peas. And was that the one? Was that what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 5:55

That was the the the copywriting program, like entrance exam.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Oh, okay. Can we talk about that? Sorry, not the internship, not that. Okay, sure. So the entrance exam. Sorry guys, we're gonna this welcome to our relationship where I mess up all of the details and Phil corrects me. So what okay, can you explain this? Because I remember laughing so hard, being like, that's what got you into the program. And for me, it seemed so funny because now the kind of work you did is so like intricate and so involved, and like, but the thing that got you in was the simplest form of writing, in my opinion. So can you talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, so it's it was basically like here here's the bar to get into this program to see if you have any semblance of understanding of how words and visuals can can work together to convey a message. So we were provided this is for a print ad, mind you. So going back in time before it was primarily digital, it's like a one-page print ad where the headline was given to you and it was give peas a chance, P-E-A-S. And then we had to sketch a visual to accompany that headline that helped them have some sort of interplay. And I mean, the mo the most immediate and iconic thing, which I think 98% of any student that got in did was create a peace symbol out of peas on the page. Well, I'm almost cringing talking about this, but yeah, that's but that's that's what we all had to do in order just to get that check mark to say, okay, yes, you you have a general idea of what you're doing. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Perfect. Okay, sorry. I just had to I had to hear it again because I just remember when you came home telling me like what you had to do, and I was like, this is how you get into a program. All right, cool. Let's see where this I'm really interested to see where your career job what? You quit your job to write about peas. Okay, so, anyways, let's see how this worked out. So I want to get into the questions that I always get about copywriting. So a lot of things that come up is, you know, we talk a lot about brand storytelling, right? And how important that is to have that kind of messaging going across all of your marketing, whether it's your website, your social, your emails, your any kind of copy. So let's break it down. So I think we could break it down into a couple of areas. What do you think are some of the most important things for people to know when it comes to writing for their brand? Because I feel like this one is, you know, a lot of people are like, all right, I've created a business. I'm gonna make a website, and what do I put on that website? And a lot of people will go and they'll hire companies, but then what we hear a lot of is like they just didn't get the brand, or the writing, it doesn't sound like me, or it doesn't sound like what I want it to sound like. So, what are some of the most important things to know when it comes to writing for your brand?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Oh boy, big topic. I think in the simplest terms, it it'd be having a clear distinction between the the what and the how. I think a lot of people don't get clear on what they need to say before they sort out how they need to say it. And that gets more so into tonality and you know the voice in which you speak. So if you feel like you've got 50 things you need to say, you gotta boil that down. You gotta say, what's the one thing I need them to walk away with? And what are two or three things that I can say underneath to support that? Because we all have the attention span of Goldfish now. So long gong are the days where people are willing to read paragraph after paragraph unless they're like truly in your funnel and wanting to know the ins and outs of your product or service. So get clear on what? Just super simple, get it on, get it on a page, write it down. It doesn't have to be beautiful. And then once you have that thought and you've sat with it, it's like, okay, well, now how am I gonna convey that? And that's really where knowing your brand and your voice comes into play. So we always say, you know, know thyself. And I think it's like, no, know what where you can play and what you can do, and then equally know what you should not do and where you should not play. And I think we can all think of probably several brands that have played in spaces they should they should have not have played in and how that's come back to bite them.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I don't know how many people are saying know thyself, but I'm gonna trust you on that one. All right, so now that we know like, you know, what lane we should stay in and kind of like know what our our how is and and why? What how would how do I word this? So what would you say is like the easiest way to weave your like brand story into your marketing? So whether it's online or you know, through visuals or on your website or in your email, like what's the easiest way for brands to do this? Because I find that a lot of time, you know, you'll see so many people talk about brand storytelling and the evolution of the brand and share it and share your why and share your mission. But then it kind of gets into a mishmash between like that sales aspect and the actual like brand awareness stuff. So, what would be the easiest way for a brand to actually weave their like brand story into their marketing?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Oh boy, this is this is the battle I have with brand teams all the time where I'm like, here's a here's a story to convey what you're trying to say in a very, very simple and you know, emotional way. And they're like, Yeah, but we also need the features in there. And it's like, but that's not the story. Because you know, we're emotional creatures, we we respond to story and narrative. Features have a great, you know, place in the conversion cycle, maybe keep them on an e-com page. Uh, but when it comes to telling your brand story, I think the hardest distinction to make is how do you engage with people and not make it about your product and not make it about your service. You basically want to remove yourself and say, you know, where where can I play that engages with people, entertains them, or provides them some sort of utility without just hammering them with information. And I'm gonna go back to the, I guess, the swim lanes we were talking about of what you can do and what you can't do. So Wendy's is very good at this. Wendy's knows exactly what they are going to do when they sit down on Twitter or X. And you know you're gonna get roasted if you engage with Wendy's. They've got a very smart marketing team, very pithy writers, and it has nothing to do with burgers or food. It's just fun, it's entertaining, and people now go to a fast food chain to make be made fun of publicly. It's it's ridiculous, but that's the world we live in. Whereas if you flip that on the other side of the coin and you take a brand like Dove or Nyx or something like that, and then they start trying to do the same thing, that's counterintuitive to what they've spent years building up and you know, trying to lift people up and be in a brand about empowerment. So, yeah, define where you can play and start telling those stories. And you need to pull from what your brand's known for. So, like leveraging the the equity you already have. So if you're known for being engaging, if you're known for you know being entertaining, lean into those pillars as a as a way to connect with people.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, I think that's really important. I feel like a lot of people they they start to lose focus and they get out of their lane and they're like, well, look at what this person is doing, and I need to try that. And maybe I should dance online or maybe I should be rude to my customers or whatever it is, right? But then it doesn't work because what you've built actually is like not in line with what other people are doing. So I do believe in staying in your lane. I agree with that a hundred percent. And I think it makes sense because, you know, at the end of the day, it's your story to tell, but on top of that, it's also your customer's story. And so how I wanted just to add that in is, you know, a lot of people they lose track of, okay, I'm gonna keep telling this story and keep telling it and somebody's gonna get it and somebody's gonna hear it, but they forget that they have a ton of customers and clients and consumers that can also tell the story and to really push for that UGC or user-generated content to help push the storyline, right? So that it also, it's like, it's like having a spin-off series of something, right? So you have the same story going, but you got these actual customers that are now speaking to the features. Because when we speak about the features of our business, we sound like the sleazy car salesman, right? We sound like, hey, come and get your VIP day with your package, blah, blah, blah. But if we have, you know, client X, Y, and Z coming on and now talking about our services or our product and talking about, like, oh, I love the way this underwear held me in, or, you know, this burger was so satisfying. It tasted like the real deal or whatever. It had pickles on it. I don't know why pickles, but pickles. Okay. But like, you know what I mean? Like the feature, they're speaking to the feature. You're not, you're just drawing the story. And I think another company that does this well is like Red Bull, where they don't actually like feature their product on their like socials and stuff. Like it's product placement, but it's not like just an individual product. They're, you know, sponsor everything. Yeah, it's all sponsored. It's all like showcasing the lifestyle of who uses the product versus like product in your face all the time. So I think people need to really lean into this, you know, how can we use our copy and our story to actually sell the brand versus selling the features?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, I um I was thinking about one of the one of the brands that I'm really enjoying in the past couple years is Liquid Death. And so anyone who doesn't know Liquid Death, they make carbonated water. It's in a can, but their call to action slash tagline is murder your thirst. So you know immediately what you're getting. Death to plastic, murder your thirst. So environmentally conscious and just like heavy metal, and it's water. And no one else is doing this in this category. And so there's they're treating their company not as a product brand, but as a media company, and they just keep producing content. And yeah, sure, there's stuff's in it, but it's got it's got very little to do with what's actually going because they're they're building what they're known for, and they're building that brand equity. So a a great comment on one of their ads was, I'd rather lick sweat off of Fat Man than drink liquid death. And so they took that and they created a taste test video where they got a guy in Asana and he got him really sweaty, and then they made people blind taste tests, liquid death, or like licking his back. It's a disgusting video, but it's perfect for the audience. And it's like they're taking, they're taking negativity about their brand and they're turning it into entertaining content, which is just perpetuating this cycle of awareness for them. Uh, odd example, I'm sorry, but uh just one that came top to mind.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I was like, I don't know where you're going. I did not approve any of this. No, I'm just gonna no, I get it though, but I think like what ends up happening with a lot of brands is they're afraid to like go there. They're afraid to go the extra mile to really lean into what it is that they're known for. It's almost like, again, it's that fear factor. It's like the what if I did lean a hundred percent into this tone or into this type of writing or this type of promotion for my company, and what if I bomb it, right? But my thing is always, but what if, what if it thrives? Like, why not take the chance and see where it lands? But I want to use that to just segue into like tone and consistency. So, in this, you know, copywriting aspect. So not just the marketing, but like specifically in copywriting. How can somebody, you know, let's say somebody newer to business, entrepreneurship, branding, all that stuff? Like, how can somebody easily consistently write in their business? Like, what are what are the key tips, I guess, is what I'm asking?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

A great exercise that was handed down to me by an old CMO at SPIN was around defining tone and manner. Because a lot of a lot of brand teams struggle with that. You know, we we jump at opportunities, we say, Oh, we want to be exciting here, we want to be calm over there. But if you can define that brand voice, that tone and manner, it's actually gonna inform the type of choices you make in the copy that you write. So this exercise, it's it's pretty simple. It's basically picture picture celebrity that embodies the voice that you have in your head for your brand. So pick a pick a celebrity.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I don't know. Don't put me on the spot. Uh I you know I'm gonna just choose like a real housewife. Okay, here. Let's do Sheena Shea from Bander Pump Rules.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Oh wow, there's okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I don't know, like she's a celebrity, but that I was just like listening to one of her random podcast episodes. So we're going to.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So we've got we've we've got Sheena, and I'm gonna lean on you for for this one because this is uh I'm gonna need some help. So basically you write you write down the celebrity's name, and then underneath that, what we want to do is list three adjectives, and you want to create this as a hierarchy. So the first adjective being the most dominant factor or personality trait within that brand voice, the secondary one that shows up, and then the third one that's there potentially only under a certain circumstance, but you need it regardless. So for Sheena, wow, I'm gonna I don't I don't think I have any proper adjectives off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

She's good as gold, babe.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Good as gold, noted. But the idea being once you once you've you know modified your nouns and you've got your voice, so you're like entertaining, you're exciting, and you know, you're you're also sometimes you can be cruel. Why not? Let's say sometimes we can be cruel at the bottom there. So we know we will always lead with a voice that is exciting and entertaining, because those are those are our top two dominant characteristics. And then that it starts to inform the type of language and word choice you have as you develop your copy. And then that cruel part, you know, it it sounds kind of odd now that I'm reflecting on it, but maybe there's an opportunity for you to have some interplay with your with your customers online and be a little bit cheeky. Maybe cheeky is a better word as opposed to cruel.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

I was gonna say, yeah. Okay. Yep. And then from there.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, and then once once you have those things, it's basically like go back and and use that as a checklist to evaluate your copy. So it's like, am I delivering on these three things? Am I if if something else comes to mind when you're reading your copy and you're like, actually, this adjective is showing up, it's it's good to say, okay, then maybe I need to edit this or adjust some of the language choices I've made in order to stay true to what I've I've agreed to. Because once you've locked that brand foundation, everything pours out of that. And so everything should be true to that. Otherwise, you're constantly going to be going back and adjusting your brand tone and voice, which means you're not showing up consistently, which means people don't know what they can expect from you, which means they're probably going to unfollow you. And ergo, it starts to kind of unravel itself.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yes. 100%. Yes. I agree. I see that a lot. I see a lot of inconsistencies online, but I think it also just keeps going back to people trying to do all of the things and not giving it a long enough shot, right? So, like you, I think the correct analogy is like Rome wasn't built in a day. Is that right? Did I get that right? Rome was built in a day. I don't know. I messed these up on the first time. Yeah, there you go. Very nice. That was just for you. I mean, and I think that a lot of people, you know, we live in a culture of like, I want it right now, like immediate results. And that's not really the case, especially if you're starting a brand. Like they'll look at things like NYX or Nike or even a smaller brand that's doing well in their in their space, and they're like, well, I'm just gonna do what they do because look at how much they have. But what they don't realize is how much thought and process and and long-term planning and consistency actually took place to get to where they are. And yeah, there are some instances of overnight success and stuff, but they're actually not that common. And anybody claiming that they've done like, you know, X amount of sales in one day or whatever, like I, you know, show me your actual like your numbers. Like, I'd love to see that and tell me how you got there. And you should be teaching that to the world then so that we can all be millionaires. But I don't think it's actually as easy as just posting once or twice a week online and sending one email blast a month, right? Like that's not how it works. So when it comes to the community listening, what are, you know, what we wanna, I always want to give an actionable item in this podcast. So we want to basically give our listeners one thing that they can do at the end of this episode that to help make them a better writer or to help, you know, get them more consistency with their with their copy. So what is one thing that they can do today when they unplug from this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

If you haven't done it, then then do the brand adjective exercise just for your own personal brand and see where you net out. It might be a big aha or it might be a bit of an oh shit moment, but either way, it's gonna it's gonna get you somewhere and it's gonna help you along. And there's just something about you know using like a public figure that helps solidify that and makes it tangible. I think a lot of the time we just get we get lost when we're writing because we haven't set up the proper parameters. So it's a great place to start. And then once you have that, my second piece of advice would be take the time to make it shorter. Because I think we we all well, I mean, you and I anyways, we we grew up in that academic era where it's like, give me 10,000 words on this one paragraph excerpt, and that's where the art of bullshit came into play, and you would draft these super long papers and yada yada yada, and you'd get some arbitrary grade on it. And now going back to attention spans being absolutely zero, and you know, you're just pulled in so many directions, you don't have the headspace, you need to hit them with immediacy. So know what to say, and then know exactly how to say it in the fewest number of words.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Great, I love this. So that's actually something we do with clients all the time when we do video shoots. So I'll be like, okay, like say it, say what you want to say. And then I stop them and I say, now say it in five words or less. And it is amazing. The faces, the faces that I get, and it's just like, what? What do you mean? How do I do that? And I think it's true. Like we come from this whole like long-winded, like, I need to overly explain it. You really need to understand. At that point, that's where I say, go back to the drawing board and let's simplify it. Okay, so your actionable item today, guys, is to basically take your brand, picture the celebrity that you want to be selling that brand, or that what's the word I'm looking for here? It is your brand.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

The brand voice that you're gonna have in your head.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Perfect. So let's so we use Sheena Shea today as our example. So you're gonna take your brand, you're gonna pick a celebrity, and then you're gonna come up with three adjectives, and then we're going to break it down that way and start speaking as that celebrity. Am I correct? Did I break that down well enough? We are gonna put this in, we're gonna put this in the show notes. It's gonna be well, way better with in the writing since this episode's on copy and I can't speak, so it's fine. All right, so we end off every single episode with some quick fire questions. So, Phil, are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

All right, what is one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Experiment more consistently.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

I like wow, you did that in three- That's that's copy. That's great. Great editing there. All right, tea or coffee.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Coffee black.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Black, all right, and one thing you could bring to a deserted island. Just one out of anything in the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Uh Rogate Thesaurus.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Oh my god, the damn do you know that this man brought a thesaurus on our honeymoon and like literally learned a word a day? It was really annoying. So he's he's not even lying with that one. He's not even lying. All right. What is one thing everyone can do right now to make themselves a better writer?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Seriously, take the time to make it shorter. You'd be amazed at what you can trim after two or three edits. Walk away from it, come back to it, and what you'll be left with is in far better shape than where you started.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Amazing. I love that. All right. We are done. Do you have anything to add today, Philip?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Do we want to talk about the headphones?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

What headphones?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Your headphones.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

My headphones? Oh, we want to tell that story. So fine. We have three minutes. You can all sign off now unless you want to hear two people that are married bicker about headphones. So the headphones that I'm wearing, if you happen to watch this on the video format, they are black now. But I asked my husband to just go pick me up a new pair of headphones because my old one's broken, didn't work, and it was late and it's holiday time. And we are stressed out. We are very stressed out because as moms and business owners around the holidays, we go a little cuckoo. So I asked Phil, could you just do me one favor, babe, and just go pick up these headphones? Sent him the link, everything. And I wrote in a text, make sure it's the black pair. He gets home. Yes, he did. He he gets home. He's so proud. He's like, I got them. It's great. You don't have to worry about it. I took this thing off your list. I took it off your list. No mental load around the headphones. And yeah, I opened the box and they were bright blue. Cobalt blue. I think cobalt is the right word. They were blue. And I was like, this is not part of my brand, Phil. We know how important branding is in our household. And you got me the wrong ones. And then, and then, and then he tried to tell me that I didn't tell him I needed the black pair. He he tried to gaslight me. And as it's as it's coming out of his mouth, he is like looking through his test, he's scrolling through his tests, and then he sees the text that says make sure they're black, and then he shut his mouth. And then he went back out to Best Buy and he got them for me because he's a lovely husband. Thanks. Is that the story you wanted me to tell?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I was gonna talk about the no return policy once they're open.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Oh my god, oh that. Okay, yeah. Oh, and then he's like, Oh, by the way, when you open these before I knew they were blue, I can't return them, so make sure this is the one you like. So I opened them, they're clearly blue. So he goes back to Best Buy to return them. And what happened?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I uh I told the customer service guy that it was for a child who was starting a podcast, and it was very important that they had them in black, and I had made a grave error in judgment. So they were kind enough to give me the store credit and let me exchange them for a black pair.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah. So he lied. He's he basically told them that our kid was starting a podcast, which I mean, whatever, you had to do what you had to do. You had a very angry wife. And on that note, I love you, I appreciate you, and I'm so happy you came on today. There will be more posted on the Instagram page, guys, so you can go there at grind social media, and until next week, we will uh see you then. I think that's what I wanted to say. I don't know, let's just end this before it gets weird. All right, bye guys. Thank you, Phil.