Influencer Marketing Strategy: Dos, Don’ts, and Common Mistakes

This week on Marketing Sucks, Amanda is joined by Chelsea Clark, founder and CEO of Momfluence, to break down what brands get wrong about influencer marketing and what actually makes creator partnerships work. From unrealistic expectations and one-post “magic” thinking to budgets, briefs, affiliate offers, mom creators, micro-influencers, and why smaller communities often convert better than massive followings, this episode is a no-fluff conversation for brands that want to work with influencers without wasting money. Amanda and Chelsea talk about why influencer marketing is really about content, trust, retargeting, brand awareness, and long-term relationships, not instant sellouts from one post. If you are a product-based business, service provider, or founder trying to figure out how to approach creators, pitch properly, set a realistic budget, and build partnerships that actually make sense, this episode is your reality check.

What You’ll Learn

✔ Why influencers are not magicians and one post will not usually sell out your product
 ✔ What brands should actually expect from influencer marketing campaigns
 ✔ Why impressions, story clicks, and reusable content matter more than vanity metrics
 ✔ How to choose the right creators for your brand, audience, and campaign goals
 ✔ Why micro-influencers and smaller creators often create stronger, more authentic content
 ✔ What not to do when pitching influencers, including Gmail pitches and affiliate-only offers
 ✔ How much brands should realistically budget for influencer marketing
 ✔ Why long-term creator partnerships usually outperform one-off sponsored posts
 ✔ How to think about influencer content, paid ads, retargeting, and brand awareness together
 ✔ Why going briefless can sometimes lead to better, more natural creator content

Connect With Us

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Thanks for listening and thanks for being part of this community.

Meet Our Guest

Chelsea Clark is the founder and CEO of Momfluence, a leading influencer marketing agency that specializes in mom creator-led campaigns for family, lifestyle, and consumer brands. With a deep understanding of the modern mom consumer, Chelsea helps brands build trust, relevance, and measurable growth through authentic creator partnerships across North America.

Learn more at www.momfluence.co or follow along on Instagram at @momfluence.co.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome back to Marketing Sucks. I'm your host, Amanda Casinha, and today we have a special guest. I'm actually very excited for this conversation because we're gonna talk all things influencers, and she's kind of an expert in it. This is Chelsea Clark. Say hello. Hello. Welcome for having me. Yeah. I'm gonna briefly read a quick bio, but we'll have Chelsea just introduce herself because she's pretty awesome. So we have she's the founder and CEO of Mom Fluence. You've probably heard of her. It's a leading influencer marketing agency specializing in mom creator-led campaigns for family, lifestyle, and consumer brands. Very cool. So I want to know all things you and Mom Fluence. So tell us who you are and what led you to build Mom Fluence and what it is all about.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I know you're not supposed to answer, like, I'm a mom of two, but I have two sons. There's seven and ten. I always joke that like that's my real job, but I have this little side hustle called momfluence, which is my daytime thing when time allows. But yeah, who am I? I'm a burger, I'm a perfectionist, I I like to ski. I live in Collingwood, which you know. Many people don't uh to any American, I live in Toronto, but I don't live in Toronto anymore. I live there for like a decade. But yeah, I love hiking and I I like growing businesses. So it's not like like I like marketing, of course, but what I love about Momfluence is the growth. It's been so much fun to grow. And previously I owned a restaurant company based out of Toronto, so that was another that's a very different business to what I do now. Yes. So at the at the end of that business, I had just gotten pregnant with my second child and I was very over-running restaurants, like couldn't explain to you how over it I was. I'm sure. And we moved to Costa Rica, so similar to you, didn't want to live here full-time anymore. And then I figured I should probably start another company since I was unemployed with two children. Probably a good time to make some money. So when my son was three months old, I was trying to help small retailers actually get into Toronto-based like boutiques, you know, all those cute stores and like from C that sell kids stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

I was like, oh, I can do this from abroad. Like you have a great product, I'll help you get distribution. All those brands really needed to work with influencers at the same time. Like they weren't doing anything. This was in 2018. So it wasn't like a lifetime ago, but still it wasn't that common, right? Working with influencers wasn't a part of every brand's story back then. And so I tried to help those really mom-owned like small businesses get influencers, and it was hard. And if I went to an agency, it was expensive. And I for some reason thought that I could do it, even though I didn't have Instagram. I like I'm not a big social media person at the time. So, you know, one of those weird strokes of like, yeah, I can do this, I can build this.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I think that's how everyone story starts. You're you just gotta be a little bit like just enough crazy to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Well, like I have domains of other companies that I never started. I've designed the logo, like all those things. I've put in so much more thought, and then Montfluence, I just started doing, and I was like, I didn't really think that through. You know, was there not like the other ones?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Well, was there something like specific in the market that you saw was like lacking? And that's why you were like, okay, this one. Basically. So what were you seeing?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I had calls, I had calls with agencies that are now like giant companies, and they're like, okay, the minimum is like 30k for a campaign. I was like, oh, they're not gonna be on board with that. Like that's probably what they make in a year at this point. So that's impossible. And even if it was a software, I was going through it, it was really ugly, like it felt awful to use. Like as a woman, the user experience is important, right? Back then, a lot of software was designed by coders, yes, which does not the same. No. So there was something missing just in terms of like nice usability and just all moms, like again, those platforms that I tested. There'd be a ton of men or you know, travel bloggers, and I was like, this shouldn't just be simpler, just for there's so many brands that only want to talk to moms.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, yeah. So, what makes the mom before we're gonna get into like a bunch of stuff. I want to talk do's, don'ts, budgets, because there's a lot of people that don't realize you need a budget for this. But before we get into that, I want to know why, like mom influencers specifically. Like, what was it about that niche that you were like, bingo? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

I guess because it was serving my existing clients. Great, but yeah, in ironically, none of my clients have used it. I don't think if I think back then to the 10 I had, I don't think any of them have actually used it. So it was there was too much time in between. It took like 18 months to build, and by then they were like, we don't even know who you are anymore. Because I was like, sorry, I'm doing something else now. That's fine. I mean, feel sorry for them. But yeah. But I mean, also like I was in the trenches of early momhood, right? I was like, Whoa, being a mom is really powerful. Like everything I ever think about, I have a newborn and a three-year-old. So it made sense to me that I was like, moms are pretty good, we should focus on this.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, and we also like we influence each other, right? Like, I mean, at the end of the day, I think about it. I'm like, if when I like, I mean, I'm still a mom, but when I was like a mom of like small babies and like small little toddlers, like little people, I was only looking for other mom accounts to like feel like like I belonged to something and I wasn't so like alone, you know. Even though I had friends that also had kids, it still felt like isolating, right? So I think that moms have such a huge impact online, good and bad, some. So I wanted to know for influencer marketing specifically. I think there's a lot of people out there that still think that you're just paying for like one post and you're supposed to get like all of the things back. So what do we say to that? Like, what is your like, you know, let's say you're working with a new brand or something and that's what they think this is. Like, what would you say is actually the the reality of the situation?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

My favorite line is influencers are not magicians. Because thank you. That's the that's the basically what they're like. They should do one post and they should sell out. And I'm like, doesn't quite work like that. But I I always really could try to convince brands to think of it as you're getting content because at the basic level, that is what you're getting, especially if you're paying creators. Like the worst thing you're gonna get is great assets you can repurpose. Yeah, right. The second thing you're gonna get is an audience that you can retarget. So those two things are guaranteed, literally guaranteed. And anything beyond that really depends on what you've done already and what your offer is. Like that's on you at that point.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, right. Like if you're yeah, yeah, I think sometimes brands think like, oh, okay, so like I'm gonna pay this one person to do one thing and now I'm gonna make a million dollars because they got a hundred thousand views or something like that, or more than that, right? But it doesn't always like equate to that. So I think that you know, we have to look at the metrics a lot differently. So, what are some of the metrics that you're telling people to focus on or what you're promising at the end of the day? I mean, you can't really promise like guaranteed results, but what are you saying to like maybe focus on? Like, what are some of those numbers that we should be like looking at as brands wanting to work with influencers? Yeah, literally impressions.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Impressions are the thing you can predict the most, especially on Instagram, right? Someone's feed is pretty coherent, you know, coherent. They have like a consistent, I mean, you would know from your account. Yeah. You really you may have outliers on either side that we ignore when we predict, but really there's a consistent level that you can expect. TikTok is a whole different ballgame, but impressions really like number of comments, number of saves, those kind of normal things, storylink clicks, like that is super important. And that kind of led back to why 10K and over audience sizes were only applicable to get paid. It was like because the story was so important, like the you know, click link click. Doesn't so matter in so much anymore, but yeah, link clicks we really track in impressions. And those are two really those are two reasons that you reactivate creators, right? Like the first run is the test. How did this go? You know, the first post is not like the the hero, maybe the third, fourth, fifth post, but yeah, I always tell brands we need to reactivate creators, like test 10, reactivate six. You know, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So that's what I was gonna actually ask next is like how are we going about choosing the influencers for the brands or in your like in your agency, like are brands able to choose the ones they want to work with? Can influence, can the momfluencers deny like requests to work with them? Like, how does that all work? Because I think that that's also something that people need to understand, like working with an agency versus like just reaching out on your own. I think a lot of people are like, oh, she doesn't look up busy, I'll just ask her to do something for me. And you're like, okay, so actually, people are booked out, campaigns are locked, and like you need to be like eight to nine months ahead of time, and sometimes even that's too late. So, like, what are how does it work in like your world? Like, maybe explain your agency model a little bit too. Because I really want people to understand. We have a lot of listeners that are product-based, and we have a lot of listeners that are service-based for moms, right? So, because most of my community are a lot of moms, and on the entrepreneur side, I have a lot of mom entrepreneurs here. So, I want them to understand how this actually works because I think sometimes there's a lot of misinformation out there with how you work with an influencer, like they think because their friend did it or their, you know, partner did or whatever. So, how does your model work? And then, like, how like what are those proper ways of like choosing the right person to represent your brand online?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah. So the way we work is that we have a network of creators that we've either invited or they've applied over the years. It's like 9,000-ish. They open our email, we send an email for every new brand and they apply. So creators only apply if they're interested and agree to the terms, like the max payout is $200, or the timing is such and such, or you must have a child that's between four and eight months, right? You can get as specific as you want. So we don't really do ever do outreach. We try not to. It's very time consuming. You know, sometimes there's weird campaigns that people don't apply to, and we're like, shoot, we actually have to go and reach out to people, and it just it's like for every hundred, five people might agree. It's crazy. Yeah. Right. And it's, I mean, so yeah, so they apply. So it's easy for us because within like we had a campaign start last Thursday at five o'clock and they filmed content over the weekend like that, and they had to go to a specific location that is crazy. But it works because they apply. So we're not sifting through people that may or may not want to do it right for whatever the agreement is. So how does your second question was how do brands find the right people? So when we shortlist, let's say 300 people apply, we go through and we A, look for their engagement rate and remove people that are too low, of course. I mean, it varies based on their audience, like a massive creator will have a very low engagement. That's normal, but for the most part, people want engaged audiences. So remove that, remove people that really reach like under 1,500 2K impressions on average. Yep. It's just not it's just not worth that. Like if it's a desperate product that no one wants, you might have to accept that. But most things you can get an average of like 1,500, 2K per post impressions. And then we just go through and look at their content quality. You know, some brands are okay with like humorous content, some brands are like absolutely not, their aesthetic is important. So after those two, like, you know, getting rid of the those people, then we just look at the content quality and like the brand alignment. Great. And their application, they all write a pitch. Some of the pitches they just mail in and we're like, you really don't want to work with this brand. Like, I think my audience would love this. That's not a pitch. Yeah. Right. So we can see that and we don't we remove those people. There's so many good pitches that tell you why they want to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah. Yeah. The pitches are fun. I get pitched a lot, and I'm like, I think that there's something to be said also about, you know, brands that engage with influencers a lot for a while before they just like reach out, especially if it's like free promotion. Like, that's not cool. Let's not do that. Let's get into some don'ts. What are some don'ts? Because this is my favorite topic. Because I see a lot of things specifically that come through my page that I have for years, and I'm like, let me give you some feedback.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Let me give you some feedback, right? For a while I would manage the influencers' inbox, so I saw a lot of their incoming, right? Because I I am not like I was never an influencer. I didn't see these emails. I knew what we did, but I never saw. So I mean, there's a lot of don'ts. Do not email them from a Gmail email. Email them from like a brand domain email. That is the red flag number one as a creator. Like, who are you? What is your company? It's obviously a scam.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Did you literally read my mind before this? I actually was like, should I do a post on how to email somebody? Because I my junk mail is just a bunch of fake Gmail accounts like asking for things, and you're like, no. No. Yeah, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Like real company. Don't even bother reading it. Yeah. Yeah. Don't lead with like the affiliate commission. It's just so sleazy. Like as a creator, I I understand that you're gonna pay me 30% of what I sell. Like that's not exciting for me. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm a TikTok shop creator, I'm gonna be applying on my own if I like your brands, right? Like I don't need to get pitched on affiliate things. It's insulting. Yep. Quite frankly. Yep. I think that just like when they just keep it. I remember the ones I would get, they were just like short and friendly and like, hey, check us out. We're happy to, you know, actually what the creators would accept was we're happy to send you product, let us know if you like it. We would love for you to share, which I know is more seeding and that is a riskier strategy, but at least it doesn't feel from the beginning like you're wanting something from the creator, like you're offering them something that's not no strings attached.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Right, which is very different than what we do. We don't do product seeding really, but they apply to us. We say what we want. It's a very different model, right? If you're reaching out to them and you're the 30th person they've had in their inbox that day, be just like a nice human being that's not just asking for the moon without even knowing them.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And don't like pretend like you followed them for years. Yes, yeah. Be like, I love your content, really. Because according to my notifications, you followed me all of three minutes ago. Yeah. It's like, how much do you love it? So I think it's also like be honest and like be be human, right? Like, I mean, we're real people on our accounts. Like, we know what's happening there. And if we don't, like our management does at the end of the day, right? So I think that's really important. Like I came across your account. That's totally legit. Yeah. That makes more sense to me, but pretending like you've been following for a long time when you uh clearly haven't, time stamped, date stamped, then I'm like, I'm not, then I've I feel like already off the bat, it's just it's based off of a made-up scenario. Like this isn't like uh an honest interaction, which is part of like most people's kind of like value system. Like, why would we be promoting something? So I have a question. When it comes to like myths about influencer marketing, what are some of the things that you're constantly having to like say that you'd like to get the like record straight on? Because I feel like there's some out there, but I feel like you probably hear a lot more than I do. So what are some of the myths that you're hearing?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

We really do get a lot of just like I'll pay them just are they good with just affiliate commission? Right? Like that I know I'm repeating it over and over, but that really is common. I have brand calls, they're like, okay, so we don't want to pay creators, but we'll give them commission. I'm like, but your product's only $20. No one's gonna do it for that, right? Like we send a hundred dollars of value for if you're doing product only. It has to be a hundred. And if you can't, it's not like you can send 10 cases of licorice, that's not gonna work. It has to like legitimately be a hundred dollars. Okay, or close to. Depends on how you know if it's a really sexy $85 product, that's gonna be fine. Right. You know, I think another thing is that brands expect creators to post multiple times. Like, I'm gonna send them a $300 playmat and I'm I'm gonna ask them to post like six times. Probably not gonna happen. Like it's just repeat, it's hard, even paying them, right? A creator doesn't want their whole feed to be a one brand for for a span of six months or or whatever have you. Another one is will they guarantee performance? So, creators in this economy or this, you know, the way the influencers are set up right now, do not guarantee performance. So they're not gonna repost or post again or share additional content. That's just not the way it's set up. That there's a debate on if it should be that way, but that's just not the way it is. So, like the creators are not gonna get paid based on their performance, right? Everyone's used to negotiating a flat fee.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

And so that's kind of an out. Speaking of fees, let's talk fees. So well, let's talk like an average size brand, not a startup. Like, not like, hey, this is my side hustle and I need, you know, to send some product to some people. We're not doing that. Let's say like a pretty good brand making multiple six figures, let's just say, maybe seven. What should they be setting aside if they want influencer marketing? Yep, that's the word marketing. Wow, I thought I was gonna say something else. If they want influencer marketing in their like marketing plan, what should they be budgeting?

SPEAKER_01 16:34

I would say like off the top, just like 5k a month is like a good amount. Thank you. And you know, and I mean a lot of that depends on not working with very big creators. Really, 5k is not a ton of creators, yep. Right. If you're paying them all two to three hundred dollars, but that gives you some room to test new people, to reactivate creators on like a smaller story-only basis, right? It really gives you like a mix. So, God, on like the really low end, if you have a really nice product and you're only sending product, I mean, if you're not using an agency, you should be doing 20 to 30 creators, but if you're paying them, that probably is about 5k on the using small creators, like under 15k audience size, 5k.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, so let's talk 5k would be good. Yeah, that's good. What let's talk audience size. So we have like nano influencers now, micro. I mean, there's all the terms, and then like you've got your 100,000 plus follower influencers. What's your favorite type to work with? Or what do you see?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Under 30K and then really under 10K? Yeah, why? Tell me because I'd love to know this. Yeah. The bigger the crater, the worse their content, and the more you just feel like a number, really. You know, it's just like you can tell from their communication, they're not really thinking about it. It's like a last minute, like, oh yeah, I'll get that to you, right? It just feels very like you're one literally probably one of 20 that month. It's not actually a feeling, like it's not intuition, it's reality. Yeah. Which is fine. They need to make money and do what they want. But creators under 10K really try very hard. They like you can tell they're thinking about it, they send good concepts, they have alternate concepts, they have really thought it through because they're still building their brand and they're building their resume, which is amazing. And they feel like a very strong sense of you know, duty to their audience. Like they don't want to, you know, they're protective of what they they're building. Under 30K, I feel like still have a lot of those same things. They just reach a uh, you know, a higher number of people. So if I was a brand, I probably wouldn't would almost never work with above 30k. A, I wouldn't want to pay that much on a gamble because that's all that always is as a gamble. And I'd rather work with smaller creators who have way higher engagement and get them to post continually or like every quarter. I mean, it depends on what your product is. But you I'm assuming most brands, you could at least get a quarterly post into somebody.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah. I agree. I also believe that the smaller numbers have more loyal community that actually like trust. And I feel like they're not. Yeah, and they buy because you're not like you're not posting every other hour about some other affiliate link. Like you're literally like because I I've had to unfollow people where I'm like, you used to actually have really interesting things to say, or you actually used to be really funny and like have dialogue with your camera, really like us. And now it's just every day, it's like lip gloss, jeans, flip-flops, whatever the skincare products. And I'm like, I'm that's not what I'm here for, you know. So I think as they get larger, and listen, no shade. Like, that is great. You go make your fucking money, honey. But like for me, why I followed was not for that. And there are certain creators that I follow for specific types of like they're saying the same thing. Some great like house accounts, and they share some amazing like links for like.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Accounts are purely just discovery and they have great taste. And you're like, I know nothing about you, but I love what you share. Exactly. You know, yeah, you're not following for that. So there you are right. There really are two camps. That's why one of our biggest red flags, I should have said this in the don'ts. Yeah, do not message creators or work with them when every single post is sponsored because their audience does not like them. Like it's that's like one of the main reasons we decline people when they apply. I'm like, even if you the the rules supposed to be one in four. One in four of your posts can be a brand collab. The other should be just normal content, right? And that gets harder on like Black Friday and seasonal things. But yeah, overall, we we really do buy from other people. And we, I think women especially, or like I'll speak for myself and assume that I'm not unique. I like uh home by Shauna. Do you know that account? She's uh in Windsor. Okay. So she's Canadian. Yeah. Like, I she posts enough of content about her that I feel like I know her and I like who she is that when she does post something, I'm like, oh, yeah, like A, I trust that I'm gonna like it because I love everything you do already. Right. And I'm happy to give you the sale. I know you're gonna make money from it, right? Yeah, no one's every even no normal people know they make money from it. Of course. And I would just rather give them the money than someone that's posting nonstop every day and is just selling to me all the time. Yeah. Right. It's like, where am I choosing to give my my money, my sales? But yeah, it's definitely I don't know why creators post every day about a brand. Like just it's a fast way to crash.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

That too. I just find it like really inauthentic. Like there are certain people that weave it in well, but then there's certain people where I'm like, you've never talked about this topic. I'm like, I give it 48 hours before there's a link. And then usually like within the day, I'm like, there it is. Right. Like, because I'm but also I'm in this industry. So like I'm in marketing and I'm also like part of the influencer community. Like, I'm like the anti-influencer influencer account. I have an accidental community, is what I call it. Where people literally will DM me being like, Oh, you like you talked about this thing. Do you have a link? I want to like support you. And I'm like, girl, like the fucking commission on that is one dollar and twenty-two cents. Like, I don't care. Like, I'm not like this isn't how I meet like I don't make my income this way. I actually show up for my community because they're awesome and I have great conversations in my DMs and stuff, and I just like sharing my life. And every so often, yeah, there is a link, but like it's because people have like literally. Literally DM me that I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna put this in stories because I don't want to be bothered anymore. Right. So but which is great. Yeah, but I think like at the end of the day, like the the authenticity of like how you're sharing will start to crumble. Like if you're not actually like using the products. Like we had a conversation before, and I told you I was like, a lot of times why I'm not posting some things is because I have when I do accept things from brands, I have a clause. And that clause is I have to use your product before I will ever share it because my word is everything to me. And so like I won't knock your product online. I'm not an asshole. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll return it with some feedback if I don't like it, but I'm not gonna post about it until I have a fair shot of using it. And would people even want to use this? Like, is it actually part of like something I would do? Because then I can't talk honestly about it. And that's just like a me thing. And it's probably the converts. And it's also why I don't have a lot of sponsorships. Because I'm like, I don't, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Like I can't.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Not to knock them. I think that if I think that if more people did that though, they would be able to speak honestly about the content and it wouldn't be following a brief read. You know, imagine you get sent something and you have you open it and you're like, Great, I'm gonna film the video right now. Oh yeah, this thing says it does X, Y, and Z and has this in it. Like that's the way what I'll talk about. That's not what we would share. In our all of our briefs, the the autocopy is like if you know, you must. I forget the actual thing, but it's like basically talk about this like you would talk to your friend. You wouldn't say, These diapers are EWG certified, and they're, you know, like who says that? No. Nobody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

That's why you just blame the copy. That's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

But like the number, oh God, like that's my biggest pet peeve. I used to have a folder that was called bad content. And I really wanted to like repurpose it somehow without directly saying who it was. But it was all those things of like, this oven comes with a HPA compliant, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, why? Can you why torture yourself even filming that? I would love to see that folder. It would make me laugh. I started to get more employees though, and I was like, Oh, I feel like a bitch. I should probably delete this. They're gonna be like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

No, listen, that's good. I like that. Like, we we all need we all need like a reality check sometimes. Like sometimes I see stuff and I'm like, okay, that was a choice. Like, some people are definitely buying this. I'm not. I can see right through it. But again, I think that's also from like having seen some of them like grow over time. Some of them are incredible, and I watch it and I'm like, girl, you're killing it, and you do it with such ease, and it and it works.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

And then there's other ones where I'm like, you drank the Kool-Aid, and you're Some people are natural influencers, honestly, and they just love like they should have been actresses. They're just great on camera and they're just they probably love a lot of things, they're very positive, and they're like, This is amazing. But yeah, it is an interesting model. I think that until it moves the real problem is that people, and I mean I say this knowing that you're a creator as well, but it's not like you're not the same as where you take flat fees. But really, paying flat fees, that's very enticing, you know. You're gonna pay me a flat fee no matter basically what content I make, and I want to stay at home with my kids, especially in my space, and not go work a crazy job where I'm not with my kids 10 hours a day. Yeah, like that sounds pretty good. And am I gonna be very picky and send things back if I don't like it, or I'm just gonna make the content get paid? Right. So if it in the world of TikTok shop now, where it really is up to the creator to make the content that converts, right? The onus is on them and they're not gonna include the briefing details the stupid brand told them to do because they're like, that's not gonna sell. I know that won't sell. That'll be a big shift. It'll take many years, I think, to really shift to more affiliate-based. But I think that is the problem. That being said, a lot of brands do worry that someone will send, well, someone will post something negative, right? So we do get a lot of brands that are like, you know, what happens if the creator doesn't like it? Well, if they post something negative. And I'm like, no, nobody does that. And you don't want that kind of negativity on your account. Who wants to watch that? But no, they do it what you would do. Like you, like I'll have you to send it back, it just didn't work for me. I didn't like it. I found this a problem, and it's like internal feedback, which the brand loves. It's a focus group. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Like I would I would prefer that over somebody like fake posting it where it's like, yeah, you can tell they didn't use it, they're not even saying your brand name correctly, right? That's actually. Do you want to know one of my biggest clues that it's an ad? Like the biggest thing where I'm like, I know this is an ad. I don't even have to see the little paid thingy on the screen, is when they say the name of the product. Right, yeah. They're like, This is the event cream. And I was like, Where's the little hashtag ad on this piece? Like, and they hide it in like the bottom right corner, and I'm like, yeah. Because like But you know what's so funny?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

It's like they their senior people wouldn't allow that to be passed if it wasn't clearly talking about it. Yeah. It's like you must run into this where like the C-suite literally doesn't use social media and has no idea what is normal and what's good content. And they're like, No, we need our name, our full brand name said, and we want a URL and the caption. I'm like, I don't think you do, but I'm gonna give you my advice and let you do what you want. We're working with the same people. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

It's literally, yeah, it's it's really fun when I have to explain to people, I'm like, okay, that works like over here, but that type of content does not work in like the organic land, right? Even though it's paid content, it still has to be organically pushed through, or else people just like a commercial when you were a kid coming on the TV, what did you do? You ran to the bathroom, you ran to get a snack, and then you came back for your favorite show, right? It's the same idea. Yeah. So like people know when they're about to be fed an ad. And so if we like by positioning it as organically as possible, that's actually when you get it good. Unless there's one, I have one like exception to that rule is when it's like so overly produced, like it's a beautiful piece of like like cinematic, like just you know, just like something really good. That's the only exception to that rule. But like the adsy words, I can't, I can't, you know. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

So, you know, I I remember just now when you said that that this used to be a thing maybe three or four years ago, that creators would post normal stories like you and your day, normal shit, and then say, the following is an ad. I really appreciate your support. And I I kept seeing that and I was like, what are you doing? That is banned. Like, you cannot do that. How about how's a faster way to drop your views than say what's coming up as an ad? So there are still some people that do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Well, they're like, I love your support on this like brand partnership I have, or something like that, because they know that those ones tank. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

I and I do understand just make content that doesn't feel so much like an ad. Yeah. Which can be hard if the brand sucks. Really, it's two, it's a two. It is a two-way issue.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

It is. Okay, so in terms of brand partnerships, like let's say from both ends, right? Like as the brand and as the influencer, like what's the best way to get the most out of it? Like, what is the like what are the do's here? Like, what should we be doing as like the business owners and the brand, you know, people? And then what should the influencers also like? How could we marry better and get the most out of the partnership? Because I think it's both ways.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah, it is. And honestly, I think, and I'm guilty of this, we didn't ever really like if you were hiring a freelancer to build you a website, you would both know the goal very well. Like, the goal is the websites being built. I think that for most collaborations, and I'm honestly I'm you know throwing shade on myself here, the the creator wasn't aware of what the goal was. We didn't really do that. It's like we're hiring you for these deliverables, but you might not know that the goal, I mean, it's obvious that it's like a website sign-up and it's an app, but you know, a lot of brains are like our goal's impressions, our goal is story clicks, right? And that was never really communicated to creators, and I really want to make that more of a thing because then you you just naturally are on both on the same team, right? And if the creator knows, like a good creator would be like, oh shit, my stories didn't do as well that day. I hadn't been posting because I was sick, whatever the thing is, I'm gonna repost, right? Because they're on the goal together. So I mean, even just sharing that, which I'm telling you, we really never did in many, many, it just wasn't the norm. Nobody would ask. They wouldn't say what's the goal here. They're like, okay, one reel, one story. I got it. Like, I'm gonna do that. I think that if the brand actually adjusts their expectations too, though, and just understands that the really one of the primary goals for working with creators is to build brain awareness and then again get something that you can repurpose, right? Like if you're not retargeting the influencers' content, either to you know, in some paid capacity, it's really dead content, right? And maybe not every piece, but that's the second half. So when brands ask, like, hey, what should I spend? Well, back to your question. If you're spending 5k on influencers, spend 5k on ads, like but split your budget. Yeah, you know, that that's how you get the most. So I think if the creators know, they're more inclined to really go the extra mile to make sure it's a success, whatever that is. Story impressions, you know, real impressions, some reels totally tank. And and then the creator can give feedback, like, hey, I know you want me to reach like 10K impressions, which is what my average is. If I do it this way that you're asking, it's not gonna happen. Can I do it this way? Yeah. Right. So maybe maybe that's the one simple thing. Like, see them as a partner, not just someone you're hiring that's a transactional, you know, relationship that's really just really surface level. Right. And if also if you hire them long term and you say, like, hey, this is my plan, like I really want this to work. So, like, again, get giving them investment into it, and then like let's do it quarterly, especially if you have something that drops quarterly or something that needs to be restocked quarterly, whatever it is. Like, they want long-term collaborations as well. Wouldn't you rather that than having to find new brands every month? Like, I know that struggle as an agency. It's tiring, trust me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

I always try like, I mean, I don't do like the influencer stuff for our clients, but when I'm partnered with the other agencies to like help out and stuff and just like do all the relationship things and the communication stuff. I'm always like, is there no opportunity here to like do a long-term collaboration? Like, it just makes more sense for the product. It makes more sense almost for everything. Results, it makes more sense for trust, it makes more sense for the community. I'm like, why can't we like? I'm like, why is it just one post? I'm like, I could take that $20,000 for that one post and I can hire like 25 UGC creators, take that content, edit it myself, and then throw like let's say 10,000 of that 20 at ads. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, totally. That would be that would be uh thousands of times more effective than the one creator for 20K. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

However, if I had a one creator who had a big influence in that niche, and it was 20 grand, but it could be for like six months or nine months or a year, and like let's spread that dollar out. And it doesn't have to be like labor intensive for them, they're getting paid great money for let's say like four posts that year. Like that would be phenomenal. Like that to me makes more sense. But unfortunately, it's not set up that way. And it makes no sense to me because I would think that as like for myself, right? If I have this loyalty to you, you're paying me great money to promote this product long term. All I'm gonna think of is this is just gonna get bigger and better as every year goes on and we keep working together, and there's more room for activations or events, or bring in my other influencer friends that have even more. And like, what like there could be so much possibility here. So I find that sometimes there's a lot of like limited thinking in how it could work because of just like what the industry kind of dictates right now.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

It's back to the magician thing. They're like, I just need to hire them once. What do you mean I need to do three months, three posts? That just yeah, it's just so it's not how they think. And it's like I think the stories about you know, celebrities or you know, influencers that are big selling through, they're they really give like the unicorn, you know, goal. That's just not every brand I I talk to is like we had this one person post one day, she had two million followers and it was just organic and she sold through our whole stock. And I'm like, that will never happen again, yeah, ever, even if you pay them. That was your one. Yeah, let's go back to like what's normal. Like you need to pay people multiple times before they convert, you just do, or have you either need to have the same creators post long term or a lot of creators posting. Somehow you need to get into my brain, yeah, right? Like it's it's like they've forgotten the whole thing of advertising. Like, do you buy something one after seeing it one time? Very, very rarely, sometimes, yeah, and usually when it's really inexpensive. So that's if that's not you and you're not an impulse purchase, you know, that's the biggest misconception. Brands think they're an impulse purchase. You are most things are not an impulse purchase.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

No, no, yeah, no, because I've been thinking about that for months. Because I think they see the other influencers that are doing like all the link clicks and stuff, but that's like because of a trusted platform like Amazon. Yeah, those are impulse purchases, right? So the Amazon influencers make a killing. Totally. So here's the thing that people get wrong. Like most of the time, it's not that they trust the influencer, the influencer just has like good taste and luck of the draw, and the the person actually trusts Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah. The return policy, how fast it will come, how easy it is to pay.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

But if that influencer had to had to do the exact same thing, but with multiple companies of multiple, like, I don't know, websites that people had to learn and trust and figure out, they would not be making what they make. So like they don't really. I have this like, I don't know. I'll probably get in fucking shit for this. I don't care. I don't think they trust the influencer. They they they trust the platform when it comes to those platforms, like the Wayfair, the Amazon, the Gap, the thing. Like, it's just that you happen to be the one in my account showing it to me first. Because there's certain ones that they all just share the exact same stuff. And I'm like, I I've unfollowed them in the last two years. I think I've unfollowed like a good like 80. Because they all just post the exact same thing. I'm like, I can't do this. I'm like, this is I'm like living in groundhog day right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So much. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. So that's true though. So many brands come and they're like, our main goal is to get more, you know, D2C sales. And like, if you're on Amazon, that is just don't even like why bother? You're not gonna get it. People are not. I I'm your target audience almost all the time on all these calls. I would never buy from your website. I probably would buy on Amazon because I have a cart at all times, like every single mom in North America. And what's the big deal? I know I can return it, right? Like that's another sad reality. Things get returned, but it just feels I'm busy. I don't want to put in my details and figure out what thing you're using. Like it's just any barrier to entry is not not gonna happen. Yeah, yep, yep. But that's that's hard because then they don't want to sell on Amazon because it, you know, you have to pay the all the fees associated. It's hard to be a seller. So I I would never want to be a brand, but I think there's smart ways you can do influencer marketing and working with small creators who are genuine, like search for up who's actually talking about you. Pay those people first.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Like why try to find new people or or find people that are talking about something else in your niche? Like if you're eco-friendly, find someone else that loves, like, look at other brands tagged. That is a gold mine for you in any category. Yeah, that's how we do outreach. If we have to find creators in a niche, we look at other brands that are you know in their ecosystem and like similar creators. Yeah, that's like the cheat way of finding some, especially a big brand. They've already vetted these people. So you can piggyback on that betting and and like if I was a brand starting out, that's what I would do. Find good brands that have already worked with creators. That was literally my next question. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. I answered it for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, but I also love I love that advice because I literally like I'll share like companies I love just because I'm not they're not really even sharing links, just taking them and stuff, or like, or restaurants or whatever. And those people will reach out and they'll be like, hey, lunch on us next time. Just like let us know when you're in the area. And I'm like, beauty, yeah, I'll take that. Awesome. Free food. Yeah, yeah. I love food. Of course. I'm like, that's the only like free collab I'm taking. I'm like, of course, I was gonna eat there anyway, so I might as well just take the free meal, right? And I'll like happily post because I go here all the time. But it's true. Like, I think find the people that are already loving on you because then it's like even more exciting. Cause I feel like those people will be like, oh my god, oh my god, they want to work with me. And like that even then that like jazzes up the community, be like, girl, that's so exciting. We're gonna support you. And then they're really gonna buy because they really want that person to succeed, right? And I feel like that's yeah, such good advice is like really, really do that in the vetting, like what other companies have done. Like it just makes so much sense. And I don't think we need to like go after the hard, like massive creators all the time. I think really utilize the micro communities that people have really like what you said earlier, you know, they work really hard because they're trying to make it and they're they're building their brand and their presence online, right? So it makes sense to like, I want to work with those people. They're eager and they have fresh eyes. They have fresh eyes, they have a fresh take on things. They're studying the people around them. Like it's really fun versus like sometimes, not all. I won't like generalize everybody, but sometimes the larger ones, it's a little like not lazy, but they it's what you said, right? It's like it's just a transaction. We're just having a transactional relationship and it's you can see it.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. So and I will I'll give you an anecdotal story that shows that uh we worked with a very big creator a couple years ago. I think it was like $2,500. We had to hound her to invoice us, hound. And I was like, okay, you don't even know that you did this campaign. Like that's not okay. That's like that is a different reality. You just don't even really care about the $2,500 that you got paid for that post. So, okay. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

I mean, yeah, I think it depends also on like who it is, right? But I think like if we're finding people who are also like very into what it is that we're doing, like whatever your niche is. So, like, if like we have skincare clients, when we send out PR boxes or when people engage in our DMs, just a heads up if anybody knows who this company is. When you DM, our team is like cyber stalking you. I'm going to watch and see if you actually talk about skincare. Yeah. Because I'm not gonna send you like like you know, a couple hundred dollars worth of like PR stuff, like a box and all the goodies, if like you literally never, ever, ever, ever have talked about skincare in your life. Like it I it makes it makes zero sense for like just in marketing. And so, you know, when you are reaching out, like I think as an influencer, as a creator to a brand, you also have to think about like what it is that you have out there and like does it even make sense for the brand before wasting your time? Because you're wasting our time. And then what ends up happening is then we have like a little like red flag next to your name of like this one. If they reach out, like just ignore the email, Kim, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:23

And that that is a hard thing on the creator side is I see we see this a lot with pre creators who are pregnant, right? For their first baby, their whole feed is travel or fashion or home or cooking, and they're like applying to all these campaigns that are baby. We're like, but you're how do we know your audience even wants to see your baby content? Right. Right. So if you're switching niches, you have to do free stuff for a long time, really, which is sucks. But like you're you know, it'd be like a freelancer starting, I was in web design, now I want to do paid ads. Okay, maybe do some clients for free because we don't even know if you can do that. Yeah, yeah. So of course, yeah, yeah. How many of your food content creators have babies? Like maybe they'll stop following you when you start posting baby content, which you know, I think on the creator side too, they don't have a lot of appreciation for what the brand does in terms of like what they're sending. Like, even shipping is a cost, sending the product is a cost, the labor to organize it. You know, it's like there just needs to be more understanding that both people are are really investing something or should be, right? Like it really needs to become a partnership and not so much a I hired you for yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Yeah, and I think that's also where it comes into play with what you said about like the goal, like everybody understanding what this is, because that like for me, I could never start anything with anybody in any in any like I don't know, realm of the world, like business or other ways, without knowing what the goal is. Like what what is the what's the purpose of this?

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Because then we can attack down to it. Yeah, yeah. Like I I have I heard it on it's not an original idea to me. I heard it somewhere on a podcast, and I was like, oh my god, I've never done that. And it was like, you know those moments where you're like, shit, that's really stupid. But I'm like, well, I'm determined now, so it's good. But like it'll be weird to creators, they're gonna be like, Why are you sharing this with me? Like, this is new. We don't I nobody does this. So, you know, it's gonna be a little bit of education and maybe just like a hey, just so you know, like we're hoping that you'll hit 2k views. Like, just wanted to share that with you, maybe let us know if we can help you get that, right? Like, can you know? But I think I try to reformat things.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

That makes the most sense for me because then you approach the content differently. Like, if in my stories, like if you're telling me, okay, I need to post this in my stories, right? We've agreed to whatever it is, but the actual story like goal is impressions, or is it clicks, or is it share? What is it? What are you telling me that you want out of that? I will craft that story in a very different way or a lead up to it so that I have more engagement authentically, but I know what riles up my people. So I'll do that, you know, like I know what my community likes to see. So I'll make it interesting and I know then I'll get that result. But if you're just saying just post a story, I'm gonna be like, hee, here you go, da-da-da. And like, yeah, you know, Bob's your uncle. No, I know pay me.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

You're the ideal person to talk to that, talk about this because you are the test bunny. Like you you're saying exactly what I would want. Like you're gamifying in your mind. Like, you want that? Great, I'll deliver. Yeah, right. But I mean that some not everyone will be that way. But yeah, I'm gonna test it and I I should come back on in six months and let you know how it's gone now that it's being tested, along with some other do's and don'ts as we enter into the affiliate TikTok shop world. Yeah. Are you seeing that more with your skincare companies? Like we are more leaning into affiliate and less wanting to pay flat fees. So actually leaning away from affiliate right now.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Like leaning away from TikTok shop even. So TikTok is new for them. So we're just we're just entering that realm. So we'll we'll go back into that conversation. But the affiliate stuff, I think before was on a different platform, and it just I don't think it was the the best option. So we're we're moving away from that now. But but yeah, TikTok will be new for them. So that's gonna be fun. I'm excited to get that. Started. It's been a slow drip. But it'll go well. Yeah. I mean, we have other like big clients on TikTok. It's a beast. So it's not for everyone. I think a lot of people are just like, I want to be on TikTok, but I don't want to be on TikTok. Like they want somebody else to manage it, which is why we're coming into play now because it's like, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

But like I will need you to actually manage all of their incoming, like, you know, a good brand gets a lot of incoming affiliate requests, right? And you're going through and sifting. Like this is ex this is not how we operate, right? We are like on flat fees per deliverable. Right. And so that is what it is. Like you most of the job is going through and just you know, filtering out who doesn't do you know, who doesn't meet the court. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then do you monitor their posting? Are there ever I know you get penalized. Is this true actually? This is a rumor that I've heard. Do you get penalized as a creator if you don't post and some a brand has sent you stuff? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I've never seen that happen. Okay, yeah. Okay, maybe it was a rumor. I mean, that's never like come across my desk, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah. Could be. But is and is there a way of tracking who's posted and who hasn't? Yeah, technically. Like if you're yeah, there are ways. What's the other thing I need to get on top of? So many brands use it, and I'm like, our creators wouldn't sign up for it, like maybe on their own, but not through a campaign application they have to apply for through us, right? They're used to getting paid flat fees. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

It's it's a different beast, but I think with like, you know, if you look at like Asia and stuff and how much they do with like the live shopping and stuff, like how much they're like how it's pushing. Like, I really like like you said, like I think that's the next wave, and I think that's where we're gonna end up for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

I don't even get live shopping. That's how out of touch I am. Like, I mean, also we're in Canada. I don't I we don't actually get some of these shopping.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

I know. I know. I just laugh because I'm like, this is like just the shopping channel. Like, you know, like late night when you're like younger and you couldn't sleep, and you're just like, what the hell are these people talking about? And they're just like literally like one thing after another, call the number on the screen. It's basically that, but with clicks. And it's it's so funny. Yeah, it's really. Wow. Yeah, it's not through like the platforms we know, it's like a different like world, but yeah, it's really interesting. Look it up, like live shopping. Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. And they're and it's like it's it's fast, like an auctioneer style, not that quick, but like very like it's interesting. It's a very interesting, like, I always think about that because I'm always like, okay, what's happening in like other parts of the world that we're like kind of blind to oh and not in our like vision. And I'm always like researching and I'm like, oh, that's very I'm like, I wonder if that's gonna be a thing here. And I think about how influencers, you know, like what they're doing and what they're creating and how fast they want to grow. And I'm like, that makes sense. Like to go that route next, you can make a shit ton of money if you're really good at it.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Right. Yeah, right. After we get off this, I'm gonna do some research.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

I'll see if I can find the actual platform and I'll send it to you. Okay, so before we get off, any last words of wisdom for brands wanting to do the influencer marketing thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Start small. Pay like a hundred or two hundred. That should be your opening threshold, you know? Test with very small craters. I like that. And and and don't give them a brief. That's that would be what I would do. Honestly, if you if influencers can't figure out what to talk about when they get your product or service or from your website and socials, you have a far bigger problem than what the influencer is gonna do. Like, why do they need a brief? I actually don't understand. Like, it will be way better content if you just don't give them anything. You know, that's like the most authentic thing. Like a friend would be giving you something. You're like, oh my god, I use this for this weird thing that no one else would know but my community would because they all love knitting like I do. Right? Like the brief's not gonna cover that. I love that. So yeah, go go briefless and start small.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Perfect. I love it. It's probably what everybody didn't think they were going to hear at all. They're like, she's gonna tell me to spend 20 million dollars and da-da-da, and like put up my house for it. And you're like, $100, no brief, go. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's great. All right. Well, thank you so much, Chelsea. It was great to have you on. Let the people know where they can find you online, and I'll tag it all in the show notes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I mean, you can read about moments on our my website, but LinkedIn is where you can actually message me and I'll respond. Awesome. All right, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Talk to you guys next week. Bye.